"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Oh god, sorry that was so ridiculously long!

coconut your mother sounds really hard work, and is ringing bells a lot with me, my mother is like this and everything has to be about her. You sound very patient actually, and right now you have every right to be the needy one after what your ex did.
It sounds like going on holiday with her would be more of the same- can you do it? You need a break now more than ever and not to be with a drama queen like her !

Hiya coconut, you've come to the right place! So sort you're having such a dreadful time.

What strikes me is that this should be a time when you are looking after yourself and putting yourself first, taking care of yourself and taking your needs seriously.

It doesn't sound like you can do those things when your mother is with you.

Can you cancel? What would happen if you did - best case and worst case scenarios?

Oh and just to say - if you need validation - she sounds awful! Yanbu as they say. [Flowers]

hey Scabby, yeah, everything has to be about her! it's why I feel like I have to maintain a constant air of being happy/excited! if I don't it's somehow a personal insult. I do try to be patient, I used to fight back a lot when I was younger (and things like this happened much more frequently) now I feel like I've 'grown up' a bit and I'm very anti conflict and I guess a part of me blamed myself for our fights, and thought if I was calm and patient it wouldn't happen or the situation would diffuse but I guess the fact that it hasn't/just pisses her off more in other ways is just further confirmation it really isn't my fault. Thank you

Chest good to know! And thank you, it's very shit. I hate to self indulge but I feel like this is the one situation where I can objectively be like yep, things are shite! I really don't know what would happen if I asked to cancel. I could offer to pay what she's lost if there is no chance of a refund (I've no idea if there is or not) since that's what she seemed most angry about. She also told me if I didn't come I'd be in "big trouble"! Have to admit that makes me laugh looking back, as if I'm a teenager living at home. What kind of big trouble can she bring upon me as an adult living hours away from her.

I'm honestly feeling the worst I have in a while now; I think sometimes I forget how messed up my family relationships are and this is a big smack in the face that it's still so bad. No longer having my DP there as a source of emotional support/validation/love is just making me feel very low and very alone.

Hi coconut, just a quick one as I should be asleep! Just wanted to say you're not alone - keep posting here as much as you need to xx

Firstly an apology, I feel like I only come on here to brain dump at intervals. But it's early in the morning and I can't sleep.

I've posted somewhere else on here about resuming contact with DM and step-dad after a year of NC, then regretting this.

Yesterday I think I discovered that on the 3 occasions DM has (ever) babysat for me - recently, because I couldn't get home from a work meeting in time - she has been pointing at toys in our house and instead of agreeing with DD that 'Santa' got them, has been telling DD that she got them. She gives money for me to buy DD some of her Christmas and Birthday presents, but DD is 3 years old. So her presents come from Santa. What kind of adult feels the need to tell a child anything else??? Besides which, I don't want DD to believe that her 'nanny' bought her stuff, because I got almost all of it from my own wages. I found out from DD herself, and just sat in my house feeling so angry. Am pretty sure if I take it up with DM I'l be told I'm being silly/over-reacting..

By this point I really wish I hadn't let them back in , and at an age where DD begins to be impressionable. They seem to be targeting her (I'm the SC by the way) more than other GC, for manipulation.

As DD hasn't started school yet, I'm thinking about moving away. I think if we were out of range physically they wouldn't bother with us.. it just worries me because I'm on my own already, and would lose the few contacts (including emergency contacts) that I have already. And DD would lose everything she knows - this house, her street, her nursery friends, people and streets she knows. So I'm torn. But will regret it more when we are older, if they manage to damage our relationship. First things first I need to stop the babysitting, as obviously can't trust them with unsupervised contact - even writing that about my own parent seems crazy..

Am starting therapy this month, maybe that will help make the difficult decisions. The first assessment was reassuring, the lady seemed to really listen to me, and basically said she recommends someone well trained and also older.. and that I should expect to be going to therapy weekly for at least 2 years. That's about £5k worth of therapy, I hope it's worth it.

Coconut I'm sorry to hear you're having a tough time

A few weeks ago I'd be giving you tips on how to placate your M but that would have been the wrong thing to do. No more placating people, put yourself, your wants and more importantly right now, your needs first. Sod what it's cost, the emotional costs of going on holiday with your M are too high. You'd be going to make her happy but I bet you double the cost of the holiday that she still wouldn't BE happy.

If you were me right now I'd be claiming my right to a breakdown, want to be left alone (by people who didn't 100% have my back), not going on holiday and not even thinking of making any alternative commitments or promises. I'd not offer to refund her either, let her sort that out. In fact, let everyone else sort their shit out whilst you concentrate on yourself, it's not your job to think of everything or to make everything better for everyone else.

Champagne Honest answer, if you have the opportunity to move, take it. Your daughter is only three years old, moving now won't affect her. She won't have the awareness of surroundings like you're thinking she has, you, her mother, is all she needs. Think of it this way, if your daughter was being mindwarped by a member of staff at her nursery you would move her from that nursery so this is no different. The only difference is you happen to be related to these people but that does not mean you have to allow them free rein and easy access to poison her mind. Plus, I bet you'd be a damn sight happier and your daughter will also pick up on this. I mean, fancy telling a little tot that Santa didn't bring her those gifts, it's nasty.

Flump I forgot to say... Chunnering, it's when I mutter and ramble to myself semi-under my breath on and on over and over about the same thing. It can be used as an insult if you use it to describe another person because it devalues what they're saying but when you use it to describe your own doings it's more lighthearted. When I chunner and I'm aware of it I picture my teeth going at it like a beaver gnawing on wood

Coconut hi. I don't think I can add anything to the excellent advice you've already been given, but welcome to the thread and keep posting - you are definitely in the right place.

Champagne my first instinct when I read your post was to think yes, it is hard to take your child away from everything they know; but then I read what Treacle had to say and she's absolutely right about you yourself being that point of stability for her right now, not her surroundings. It'd be so much harder to move later on when your daughter has made friends she's chosen for herself. As to NC, you've already done it for a year so you know you can do it - if you wanted to give your M and SF a chance you've done that and they've failed at that chance so there's no reason to feel guilty.

Think of therapy as an investment for the future. I wish I'd realised what my M was really like and done something about it when my DD was as young as yours. Good luck!

Champagne

The best thing you can do for your child is to keep her well away from your parents. I would move away from them and not leave them any forwarding address either. They are already trying to steal the heart and mind of your child and poison her against you, this is precisely how narcissistic people operate. Toxic people like your parents more often than not make for being toxic as grandparents as well.

You would not have tolerated a friend saying that re the presents to your DD, your parents are no different. They truly trained you well to put your own self and needs last didn't they and that is why you doubt yourself too. Its not you, its them.

I love the term chunnering! And funny that it's ok if it's me doing it not someone else
I've had rather a lot of psychotherapy over the last few years and it has helped me a great deal. However am not quite there yet and need to separate further from her. He said it's hard to separate from someone if you weren't properly attached in the first place.
Am currently NC with my mum as she hit my son- then lied about it (posted about this last month). Am finding that I am reaching out more to others, making new friends and finding old ones, also spending really quality time with DS. It is hard sometimes though as he doesn't see his dad who has drug problems and I work so am really busy. But I feel in control of my life for the first time in ages. Yesterday I put a bed together and am lying on it in the sun coming through the window enjoying sunday yay!

Hi everyone. I am feeling rage this weekend!!!!!!!!

So as i posted about last time, my sibling was a dick to me a couple of days ago. Can't go into detail but really rude and sullen and bang out of order, to me and my family and a good friend of mine. Hasn't contacted me since. I worry about sibling's OH but have decided to just lightly stay in touch with OH for now and see how it goes.

The ridiculous dramas continue. I have decided to disengage from it, I didn't mean to get embroiled but i did, big mistake. I called my mother last night but for some reason DF picked up and I didn't get to speak to DM. I could hear DM sitting next to him. Nothing from her today. No idea why I am being blocked.

I am left speculating but I have this spooky feeling that I am being discussed and scapegoated. It's really horrible. I haven't even done anything wrong, all I did was try to help my sibling, I can't go into detail but I was neutral but offered a real lifeline you know. And now I am being punished! Sibling has indeed gone to live with parents so now I am going to be thoroughly shut out, even more than usual.

I am so pissed off and offended and hurt. Honestly I just can't find the words to express the ball of emotion and rage and I don't know what. I feel like I need to do that hysterical sobbing type of crying but nothing is there except an ache in my throat.

Treacle yes you are right about roles. I loved that thing upthread about serving notice. I find it easier said than done because the truth is I don't want to play the game or do my role - but I haven't come to terms with the reality of my family and I still desperately want that approval that will only come from doing what I 'should', you know? I don't know how to make it not matter to me.

Attila you're spot on about power and control. I can't believe I didn't realise it about this sibling before. Thank you.

Make a list glad its helpful! I find this thread invaluable. Yy to others in the family. I too was just focused on my mother and had a big wave of that. Then realised about a sibling and had a big wave of those realisations. And now this other sibling. All abusive in different ways I suppose. It makes me frightened I'll realise I'm abusive next.

Thank you so much everyone for your comments, this thread is the best

champagne that sounds awful, and very damaging. I also am voting for move away. I know that's really scary though especially if you are on your own. When I have to move I find it helpful to get loads of info about the new place so that then my head is filled with everything I will gain from moving - new groups, activities, house, attractions in the area, etc. That helps to balance the scales with what I would lose. How far would you have to go do you think?

Hi champagne. A 3 year old will be too young to remember,for long, the people and places she used to live in. Honestly. Did you hear the research that most kids don't even remember the first 3 years [ at least] of their lives later on ? Because their neural pathways aren't developed enough yet - and they haven't enough knowledge to make much sense of new things anyway - yet. I always wondered why i couldn't remember much at all before I started school - when people think it must be because we blank out unpleasantness/ that they can 'remember ' being a baby/in the womb etc - No, basically, they've filled in the gaps. Your daughter will make new friends, go to nursery etc. No problem.

When my DS was young, his dad cleared off - and I had suffered a bereavement. The health visitor pushed me to send him to nursery, so that he'd make friends and I'd have a break[ and he from me]. He cried and I felt terrible, but they said he was as right as rain when I'd disappeared. I snuck back - and they were right. So, find her a place to make new little friends.

I can see that there is a local Mumsnet finder tag here. Go for it. There are so many groups and so much info around now on line/in the GPs, even in supermarket cafes ! One of the traits of dysfunctional families is the susceptibility to try to keep all relationships in-house, so that everyone becomes codependent. That just makes for a load of lonely old people.

You can do it. Move. it will be a new start for a new you. Be the person you've always dreamed of being. Don't be passive.
Do lots of this. . Everyone wants a friend.

Chest I don't know about you but with my Nmum the price I had to pay to get her approval was becoming too high, and not only that she kept changing the goalposts. Now I've had time to reflect there's been countless incidences of her manipulating me in order to get what she wants and yet still finding fault. When I ever so slightly pulled her on it a few weeks ago my M even fake wailed (complete with dry tears) that she doesn't even know what it is that she wants, to me that just confirmed that she's happy (?) to cause chaos in my life with no real end goal. How can you ever hope to please someone like that.

I read something last week, I'm not sure if it was on here or somewhere else but it was basically saying that we might not see ourselves as perfectionists because what we do or what we achieve isn't perfect but the fact that we get so anxious and make so many plans to be 'just right' or to get things just right is being a perfectionist. The overall message was to stop, stop with all the aims of getting it right or perfect and aim for it being simply good enough. You tried to help, that's good enough. That is where it should end.

One thing about my M, I don't know if they're all like this or if it's special to mine, she rarely actually came out and said what it was that she wanted, not outright. It was like I was meant to guess, I was meant to untangle the holy mess of subliminal messages to decipher what it was she wanted and then work out what I could do to make her happy. Of course I got it wrong, often. That would lead down the path of me trying even harder to get it right because ultimately I wanted approval, I wanted her to acknowledge that what I'd done helped her or cheered her up or simply 'made her day' (in that breezy lighthearted way that people say when you do something nice for them), but nah, never got it, never had it. I'm dealing with it by acknowledging that it's been made startlingly obvious that I can't please her. I'm also more than happy right now (I wouldn't have been a month or so ago) to admit I have failed. I can't give her what she wants. I accept defeat. I know that might sound crazy but admitting failure has had its own rewards for me.

Chest about how to 'not make it matter' to you any more? I think one way is to really feel that rage! It's an authentic emotion that comes from the real you and not the you your M tried to create.

I also found something yesterday when I was googling the Karpman triangle about another triangle that gets you out of the Karpman triangle! I can't find the exact link today for what I read yesterday, but this is close:
www.cbodn.org/Resources/Documents/2013%20Conference/Power%20of%20TED%20Summary%20Two%20Sided%202013_Tso.pdf

Treacle the M who never actually says what she wants outright? Oh yes yes yes that's mine too. Last time she came to visit (one of the two visits I'm now accepting...) I was busy in the kitchen making tea, having spent lunch and all afternoon chatting etc, and she came and plonked herself down on the sofa in the room next door and said in a very loud voice that I was meant to hear: 'This is a nice sofa!'. That was my M's code for 'I'm being neglected, come out of the kitchen and talk to me'. Then when I failed to respond, she went and stood by the window overlooking the garden and it was 'I haven't seen the garden yet!' (='Please take me on an official tour of the garden, like the Queen'). Those were quite obvious attention-seeking ones - there are plenty that aren't so obvious and then you're left swimming in a sea of hints and if you engage with them and try to please it's almost like the whole thing is engineered so you never get it right and always feel you've failed in some way.

You're right, it's best not to respond, if you can manage it.

I chuckled at the garden one Spare I've definitely heard similar but was oblivious at the time.

I actually think that my M has been in a rage with me for months. Is that possible? That she can simmer rage yet somehow manage not to burst? All the 'messages' I'm getting are traceable back to me not being available for her as much as I used to be. Some I think are obvious, such as finding out the bus times and passing them on to me to pass on to my son (I didn't) so he can get himself to work and not rely on me for a lift subtext So you'll be free to see me more! Some are playing with my emotions such as 'I cried last Tuesday when I realised it was the time we usually meet but you weren't there' subtext I am responsible for hurting her because I haven't put her first. Some are weird, for example telling me that Dad is bullying her and she has no one to talk to *subtext You are the only one that can save me. Some are more sinister I think, all the jibes she does at my son I think are supposed to make me fall out with him ergo I'll stop giving him lifts. Originally she actually offered to pay for him to have driving lessons to he wouldn't need me at all but he doesn't want to drive, he doesn't see the point yet, I can't make him but she tried to make me make him by listing me plus points to feed back to him. She got pretty cross/disappointed with me because I failed to make him 'see sense'.

The thing is, before all this I was unaware so all she had to do if she wanted to see more of me is maybe do something a bit more casual, like contact me to see if I was free for a coffee on the odd Saturday or say she was passing and am I in for a quick brew. But no, she wants what she always wants, her own way. That would be an unbreakable set in stone commitment twice a week instead of the once, and that's the thing I couldn't give her. It was never about 'missing me' or being lonely, it was about control. And that's why what I do, say or offer isn't good enough and why she can't say what she wants.

I just cannot in a million years imagine ever treating anybody, let alone my own child, the way she has been treating me. If she had a conscience she should be ashamed of herself.

(I went on a bit there, I'm having moments of being completely cross with her so have to get it out or I'll chunner and not let go) xx

Oh, I heard a good one today that I quite like. If you always do what you always did then you'll always get what you've always got

One big thing with my mother is that she's extremely socially awkward (she's a covert/"vulnerable" narcissist) and one of my jobs in life was to save her from that by avoiding anything that would make her scared (or deal with the scary stuff) but without bringing any attention to the fact that I was doing anything out of the ordinary. So like that, yes, you had to infer what was required.
I also think there are a lot of times where they'll give you the impression that you're supposed to guess what's wrong but actually there's fuck all wrong (with your behaviour anyway) they just fancy some drama. And also if they say "can I have so and so?" and you give them it then they have to say thank you. Thank you and sorry are like fucking kryptonite to them.
Ooh actually this is non-violent communication we're talking about, when you ask for things you want and don't guilt trip and all that stuff. The book is awesome, I swear every single example of non-non-violent communication was something my mother does.

chest I suspect that after a while if you hang out round here and keep reading the books, you'll find you slowly stop caring.

champagne my girls were 3 when I went NC with my mother and I don't think they remember very much about her at all. Their memories from that time are just little snatches of stuff, nothing coherent.
We also moved at that time actually and they're now (at 5) the centre of the kindergarten social life. It's not at all a bad time to move. It seems a shame that you have to lose your contacts and friends but you know your mother, you know how best to manage NC. (I went NC with my mother when I'd just moved so AFAIK she doesn't have my current address and I like that just fine).

I'm a longtime poster on these amazing threads, I've NC as I'm 1. too afraid of stinging criticism for what I'm about to write and 2. being outed.

So, long history of emotional abuse going back as far as I can remember with sibling the golden child to this day. Throw in some sexual and physical shit in the mix too and that's the outline.

This past year or two I've been engaging in risky, reckless behaviour. Namely garnering a number of general anaesthesia (removes pain for a few weeks) and abusing prescription opioids. Therapy hasn't helped after 20+ sessions and I'm in a dangerous, spiralling loop.

Not even sure why I've posted, had to spill somewhere. Please don't out me if you are able to tally up the numbers.

Btw if that makes it sound like we have an enormous garden that you can take a tour of, we don't - it's about 10m square and she could see every inch of it from right where she stood.

Treacle the thought of your M poisoning your relationship with your son (that's what she's doing when she digs at him in front of you, isn't it?) so as to get more access to you is sickening. I'd be chunnering too. And the implication from it is that she has scant regard for mother-child relationships (including yours with her, in effect.) She's playing games with you. It doesn't sound like a game you'll ever win.

Treacle yes I think it's entirely possible your M has been in a simmering rage for months. My M certainly was - actually for the last couple of years she's been acting like I'd done something wrong and was on the brink of losing it with me. Now I just wish I'd not bothered all that time trying to jolly her along - because it was never going to work.

I don't mean to be negative, but I really am wondering if going LC/doing the gray rock thing can ever work, as in free you from the constant battles and give you peace of mind? For me, the short amount of time I tried it just made my M explode - which at least made it easy for me to decide to go NC.

Somebody upthread mentioned how to get to the point of not caring - I doubt I'm there yet, but over the last few weeks I have quickly gone from feeling hurt and betrayed, to absolute raging anger. The anger is still there on and off, but I've noticed that when I'm not feeling angry, and the subject of my M cones up, I am feeling weirdly calm and not particularly bothered.

Spare Fortunately my son and my M haven't seen each other since Christmas. My M hasn't made noises that she wanted to and neither has my son. They haven't spent much time together for years, she used to look after him one day a week when he was pre-school then he'd go to hers after school one evening a week. When he got a bit older it all but it fizzled out, maybe when he was around 12 ish. When he went off to uni she never bothered with him, no texts no nothing but that's around the time she started to become more 'demanding'.

My son doesn't know that she's been making snide remarks about him, these only started a few months ago, and i've not fed any back. It was when what she was saying was starting to influence how I was feeling about him that I thought aye up, this isn't right.

Flump Yes, that's what it feels like, a simmering rage. She's not quite spitting it out what's on her mind but i'm definitely getting vibes and those vibes are getting stronger and she's making it more obvious she's not pleased with me as the weeks go on. I suspect she's waiting to get me on my own but she hasn't been able to. It feels like i'm due a right good piece of her mind.

LC and being friendly definitely isn't working for me, i'm doing my best to just turn up and give them my time but it's like she can tell that i've distanced myself emotionally and she doesn't like it. It definitely takes both sides to make a relationship work and she's not making any effort whatsoever. I expect I will go NC soon. Unless she has a totally personality transplant and suddenly realises that meeting up for a coffee once a week is a nice thing i'll be retreating. I suspect, but I have no proof, that when she sees her sister that her sister will be riling her up about me too. Her sister is cut from the same cloth and the things she says about my cousin (her daughter) are utterly disgusting, it would suit my M's sister if we did go NC as that is what she has with her daughter, they could then be united in victimhood ... or whatever it is these N's get off on. Not that any of that about her sister matters, it just adds another dimension.

R3ckl3ss It's no way enough but ...

Reckless what does your counsellor say about the opiates, do they know?

No stinging criticism here. Don't want to trigger you but I have a personal understanding of why opiates help, having been prescribed DHC once in the past.

I wish we could help more.

Flump , treacle part of the reason I went straight to NC with my mother was that I realised she was already blisteringly angry with me even when I was making maximum effort to pander to her so LC would have pushed her over the edge and I didn't want to be there to experience it.

This comment isn't aimed at you guys, just an observation, but a lot of the time children like us this think that they owe it to their parents to have it out face to face, that there is a thing of having to have the courage to stand up to them. I don't think we have any obligation to put ourselves in a position where they get to abuse us one last time and bravery is irrelevant if you're dealing with people who are batshit crazy angry. If a bad person wants to do damage they usually can, regardless if how brave you are. I know this comparison is a bit over the top but look at this terrorist attack in London. There were lots of brave people who fought the terrorists but they still managed to kill 6 people.

Counsellor unaware, sessions ended too not that they helped.

Have you thought about specific addiction counselling?