"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Ste It would make sense. She might even be asking you to share to show her that you trust her. I think trust is important in therapy so sharing would probably get you to where you'd like to be quicker, if you're ready to trust her.

my mother does the ignoring, faces and one word answers. if your mum starts I'd just leave what you've said here is enough, you don't deserve to be treated as if you are dirt on her shoe. it's hellish and your self esteem must be decimated, try not to let yourself be her punchbag, object to torment any more. good luck xx

TreacleChin - Yes my Mother did the can't remember thing, definitely a manipulative tactic.

How long is the meet-up for? Thirty mins or less then I favour the latter option too - I think they get off on any drama.

Ideally you would just be chipper all the way through and then covertly go NC - but I couldn't manage that so...

But also be prepared for lovebombing too - I think manipulative people can sense when they are on the brink of losing their supply, or it's just another way to mess with your head.

And so thus the circle turns.

Same tactic for both though.

Trust is hard Ste, and with all the trauma you've been through you're totally justified in taking it slow with the therapist. Could you share your discomfort about it with the therapist? Or agree to a boundary, e.g. to give her some song names but not to discuss their meaning right now?

I'm really sorry you're having such a hard time. It's all a lot harder when you're ill. But believe us when we say it's them, not you.

Family, you might be interested in reading stuff from Gabor Mate. He says that childhood neglect causes us to lack an essential self esteem that is inherent and doesn't come from external achievements. That's why we hang so much of our self esteem on things like jobs. It is hard.

Treacle, sorry I'm not familiar with your posts, haven't been on for some three weeks, but given what's gone before and your growing anxiety, why put yourself through the encounter? You've already evidence of your mothers' indifference and noncommittal given your childhood health. You've so much to lose and seemingly little to gain?

toomuchtooold Thank you so much - funnily enough every time I have done well in something I instantly dismiss it as a mickey mouse achievement- hence dropping out of four - yes, four degree courses.

I'm looking at Gabor Mate on Amazon - he's got a few books, is the co-authored one the best?

Hold on to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers

As for trust, that's a difficult one. I don't trust men because I was sexually assaulted by one. Interestingly this is more of an issue than my fathers contribution as enabler to mothers emotional abuse/golden child syndrome. I trust not women due to mother. I'm pretty fucked either way!

Thank you everyone xx

Yes, usually under an hour but last week was 30 minutes. My dad will be there so I'll be able to kind of focus on him and stay chipper. Xx

I feel for my dad, I know that he must get something out of it (god only knows what, she's horrible to him and about him) but that's for later. For now i'll just have to think that he'll either understand or he won't.

My OH will be with me on Friday, he thinks she's an oddball but makes no excuses for her, he also thinks I should stop seeing her. Last time we saw her together she ignored me but fawned over him, he's not gullible though so he'll see through any pretence.

Yep ste I think you especially need to respect your own need to feel safe. If you're feeling uncomfortable sharing too much with the therapist, tell them.

Family IDK which Gabor Mate book to recommend - I'm reading In the realm of hungry ghosts which definitely deals with this stuff. I've got that coauthored book, I haven't finished it but I think it's more to do with the changing nature of attachment for kids these days.
He also has tons of YouTube videos though so that would be a good place to start.

Treacle best of luck for Friday. I think Ste has a point actually about whether you should put yourself through it at all, but I also get totally that you feel you need to confront it all one last time. As my own relationship with my M seems at the moment to be going down the whimper rather than the bang route, I can relate to the feeling that if there isn't a big blowup you're not justified in making that final exit - I think that's why I haven't done it, even though at times I think it'd make things so much simpler. But at the same time I think that in their passive-aggressive way that's what they're relying on to keep you close, maybe?

Famsham I have been reading your posts and do feel for you that at a time when you are grieving your father you have to go through the redundancy as well, which is another form of grieving. It really isn't fair. None of it is your fault though. It's just some really bad luck/circumstances and isn't a reflection of your worth in any way. I think other posters have come up with some really good thoughts about how to look at the situation creatively and think about what you really want out of life for yourself as opposed to playing the role you were assigned by your family. And as someone who went freelance/self-employed three years ago after a lifetime in a 'profession' I can wholeheartedly echo what I think it was Makealist said (hope I've got that right - it was on a previous page that I can't get back to without losing this) about jumping off the professional treadmill. It was the best thing I did and I think the confidence it gave me enabled me to start tackling the family issues too. Maybe you can do the opposite and channel the courage you used to separate from your M into this new challenge? Anyway, we all have your back. x

Hi Treacle and everybody else - this thread moves so fast I've lost track a bit

Just wanted to say I hope Friday goes ok. And that maybe it might help to give yourself a bit of a pep talk before you go - just to remind yourself that you have the right to be treated decently and you have every right to walk away from anybody who doesn't. It doesn't have to be dramatic - if you feel yourself getting upset or affected you can always come up with an excuse why you need to make a swift exit -
headache/message from school/etc. I once arrange for a friend to text me half an hour into a 'visit' from my mum to give me a get out -
and I used it .

Then put that sparkly bubble of protection around you to stop anybody poking you too hard

Sounds a bit wanky I know but it helps me!

Hope everybody else is ok - keep meaning to get caught up...

I text my dad today and said that I won't be able to make it on Friday. I didn't say why or make any excuse, I just said that I'd not be able to make it. (I text dad rather than M because she has form for not answering or checking her phone whereas dad is glued to his).

I was at work when I did it. I just felt so sick in my tum and kept getting waves of anxiety that I feared if I didn't do something that I'd have some sort of panic attack and draw attention to myself. It was the only thing I could think to do to properly cure how I felt.

My dad replied after an hour or so saying, okay and wishing me a good holiday (we go away on holiday at the weekend). He didn't ask why I couldn't make it which was a great relief. I've not heard from M.

I've mostly felt okay, relieved and proud of myself, but later this afternoon (talk about bad timing) I had to deal with an awkward customer who wouldn't give me chance to explain what had happened and kept interrupting and changing the way he asked the same pointless question, I felt like he was backing me into a corner. In the end I got so confused and said 'I don't know...' he didn't let me finish my sentence and went off like a firework repeating over and over again 'you don't know, you don't know!' It was a massive trigger. So I went from feeling pretty proud of myself to feeling pretty shaken.

I need to get myself back on track. I've got a good reputation for dealing with awkward and difficult situations at work so it's not unusual for me to be given people like him to deal with. I went to pieces today though.

Can I ask something on here? - it's a bit of a general question.

Do you find that, with the background you have, you seem to attract toxic/narcissistic people or behaviours in many/all areas of your life? - work, even landlord or quite dis-connected areas?

toomuch Thanks - I think there's a TED talk too so will look for that

sparebedroom I liked famsham so much I NC'd to it and it also takes into account your advice about chosing not to play that game anymore. Everything you said was very astute re my Dad...job etc.

I was thinking today, if I don't get another job, I could - this sounds fantastical, but I've always wanted to drive across the US - if I get another job I won't be able to do that, for what? 35+ years... it is a fantasy though - but maybe it's not... but Anyway, we all have your back made me well up a bit - genuinely touched.

Treacle I'm enormously proud of you, and don't let that utter vile wanker take that away from you. He knew exactly what he was doing, I wonder how many of his family are NC with him?

champagnecyclist I used to think that - that I was a narc magnet. Then I realised that thinking was incredibly disempowering.

I think it's because people with strong emotional health, faith in their instincts and good relationship blueprints naturally identify manipulative people and don't let them 'in'.

Toxic people know they're not gonna get anywhere with them and move on until they find a co-dependent/people pleaser.

I'm trying to learn all the red flags - like lovebombing/hoovering and tactics to deal.

I also think that I used to think people who didn't do 'instant intimacy' didn't like me as opposed to realising this is actually healthy behaviour.

They were taking their time in getting to know and trust me.

Real friendships/relationships take time.

I could be wrong of course, I'm still at the beginning of 'recovery' for want of a better term and I know that I've got a lot to learn.

Champagne yes, I do attract those sorts of people, for exactly the reasons Famsham describes. I think on the previous thread somewhere toomuch explained it all really well too. I'm trying to set better boundaries with my friends and express my feelings more honestly - I have found that in some cases if they're a decent person that's all it takes to have a more healthy relationship and it was partly my fault for having weak boundaries. But that won't work with everyone. Some people are just bad people to be around. If they continue to violate your boundaries that's the big red flag.

Famsham I'm glad you're thinking about what you'd like to do and dreaming big! (Sorry, awful cliché but I couldn't think of any other way to put it.)

Treacle I hope you're feeling better this morning. I'm sure your dodgy customer was just a blip brought on the massive trigger of what you'd just done. I think you were really brave.

I haven't heard from my M in 3 weeks. It's her turn to ring me and I'm sticking to my guns of not doing the running, but every time this happens I get really anxious and feel I should be ringing, that I'm a bad daughter etc etc. I do know that it's my conditioning saying that, and that less contact is what I actually want, but I don't know how to stop the anxiety, and I keep wondering why she's doing it and what I have done that she just won't make the effort.

"I haven't heard from my M in 3 weeks. It's her turn to ring me and I'm sticking to my guns of not doing the running, but every time this happens I get really anxious and feel I should be ringing, that I'm a bad daughter etc etc. I do know that it's my conditioning saying that, and that less contact is what I actually want, but I don't know how to stop the anxiety, and I keep wondering why she's doing it and what I have done that she just won't make the effort".

That is your conditioning here at her hands really talking. Stand firm here and do not ring her!!!. You want less contact with her after all. What does talking to her really achieve anyway?.

Why do you think you are a bad daughter; you are not this at all but she has made you feel like that. She in all likelihood certainly does not think she is a bad mother. Far from it, she probably thinks she is a perfect example of mothering.

Are you seeking help re your anxiety in terms of talking to a therapist re your mother?. Re the last part of your comment, its not you its her. Her own poor choices in her and her issues alone to carry, not dump on you instead and make you feel like you are to blame for how crap her life has turned out. You were not responsible and still are not; you were but a child.

She never took the necessary help but instead used you as someone to take out all her own issues on.

Spare absolutely stand firm and do not ring her. I was stuck in the exact same cycle with my M for years, where I would hold off and hold off then eventually ring her because I was feeling guilty. I was completely stressed out and didn't even realise why!

Take a step back and keep busy doing things/seeing people that make you feel good about yourself rather than shit. It feels amazing to take the power back and step off the never-ending treadmill of trying to please a narc

BTW it's 8 weeks for me this weekend - I still have wobbly moments (mostly angry ones) but overall I feel all grown up and FREE for the first time in my life

Morning!

This thread moves bloody fast

sparebedroom
I can relate to the feeling that if there isn't a big blowup you're not justified in making that final exit

Yeah I was like that too. There was a straw that broke the camel's back moment, but it was insignificant compared to some of the shit I put up with in the past. Of course then they go around telling themselves that you're totally unreasonable because you NC'd them for a minor misunderstanding, conveniently forgetting the 20-odd or whatever years of abuse you put up with before that. Not that it matters either way - we just have to pick the time when we're ready. I think.

what I have done that she just won't make the effort

It's not you. I know you know that but it bears repeating. If what your mother wanted was a loving, give and take relationship with her daughter, you'd be just the person. But it's drama and one-upmanship they all thrive off of.

champagnecyclist
Do you find that, with the background you have, you seem to attract toxic/narcissistic people or behaviours in many/all areas of your life? - work, even landlord or quite dis-connected areas?

Definitely. I even wrote a blog post about it. I think toxic people can sniff us out, I think unconsciously there are ways we behave that give us away, and I think that makes them both seek us out as friends/partners, and also, it "provokes" their toxic behaviour, as they perceive us as good victims, whereas with other people, they wouldn't feel safe that their bad behaviour would be tolerated. With narcs particularly, they have a sort of totem pole view of human relationships - you're either on top or underneath.
(I've just read famsham's take on it and would agree with that 100%. Also have you seen take on this? Also Frozen, the Disney film - the relationship between Anna and Prince Hans is a great example of lovebombing. Honestly everything you need to know about dysfunctional relationships you can find in Disney films. I only realised my mother was a narcissist after googling "why is my mother like Gothel in Tangled".

treacle that all sounds really positive. You're allowing yourself to feel your real feelings about meeting your mother and it's pushing you to make decisions that are caring towards yourself. With the difficult customer, I think you're just feeling a bit raw right now? And your ability to deal with them will come back. (I think that dealing with awkward sods is a superpower of people like us).

Treacle re perfectionism/ I tried to help and that's enough. Yes you're right, that's a really helpful way to look at it. I too have to guess what's wrong/ what I've done wrong and so that's quite releasing to think well I tried and that is enough. I can't be perfect or win the game because the game is designed to make me try and try and try and ultimately fail.

spare thank you. Yes you're right, and the more rage I'm allowing myself to feel, the less desperate I feel to 'get it right' with them. I guess it's making me let go. That's scary too though because I don't want to. I want it all to be OK and behind the rage I think is a lot of grief.

It's all gone very quiet. Not really spoken to any of them since last week. Feels a bit spooky. It's not unusual for no one to contact me but I definitely feel like there is stuff going on, that they have been talking about me. I hate this feeling. I'm determined not to be manipulated by it and to not give in. But I feel sad about it, I miss them (or the them that like me/ when I behave as expected. Or the fantasy or them? Don't know.)

Thank you Attila toomuch and Flump. I needed to hear that. I do know not to ring her and Attila you're quite right that talking to her achieves absolutely nothing anyway. I am craving evidence of a love I'm never going to get.

Having had a think about it after reading the comments above I think I need to get more in touch with the feelings of loss I have at the realisation that I'm never going to get that unconditional love from her, because those are the feelings of the genuine me rather than the conditioned me and I think that feeling those feelings may be what will help drive away the anxiety. I do feel those feelings - sadness and anger - some of the time but I think I'm having a wobble. Flump - good advice to keep busy doing things that make me happy.

I had a little google of Mother Gothel. Sounds a lot like my M although with mine there was a generous dollop of religious guilt stirred into the mix for good measure (I'm not knocking religion btw: it reinforced my M's behaviour rather than causing it. But that's how she tried to 'protect' us from the world with a metaphorical tower.) I'll have to get hold of the DVD. DD was into Disney when she was little but has now moved on to Marvel and Sci-fi so I haven't had a Disney fix in a while...

Chest I get the missing them bit. I was getting the odd surge of 'missing' my M when I was feeling sad. But then I thought about it and realised that when in the past I have felt sad and shared it with her, she almost never helped or even listened. Usually she would turn it around to be about her. And because I knew that, I stopped 'sharing' my feelings and thoughts with her long ago.

I also tried to think of what I actually missed about her. And as nuts as it may sound, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing . I think what I miss is the idea of having a 'mother' around - even though mine is a shit one. So I'm missing something I've never had.

Not sure where I go with that one though ... I am still avidly reading a couple of books and hope I get to a part that helps

Hi Spare x-posted with you...

Funny you say about Mother Gothel. I watched Tangled years ago with the DC - I thought it was a really good film but it disturbed me a bit at the time and I didn't understand why... Strangely enough my narc M always used to have a 'thing' about my DD's hair (she does have beautiful hair, tbf!). My mum would pretty much go nuts when DD would get a hair cut - we would laugh about it but it always seemed a bit strange. And conversely, DD's cousins (same age as her) would get her hair cut and my M would say 'Oh yes, it will do it good to have a cut as it always looks a straggly mess' . And that would be in front of her....

Toxic fucked up old bat.

Thank you everyone, I feel much better today. Toomuch This bit ... Our brains are trained to do it but in your heart you don’t want to, you can’t. fucking. be. arsed really resonated with me, that is just how I felt when I was dealing with that bloke yesterday (before he shouted at me). Maybe it wasn't so bad of a timing after all, now I've got over the initial shock I realised that it gave me an insight of what it feels like to be on the receiving end when I'm not fawning and contorting myself to please people. I can't deny I found it uncomfortable but if the alternative is enabling bullies by being submissive and accommodating then I'm going to have to learn to toughen myself up.

Does anyone feel like their N does that self fulfilling prophecy thing? I'm convinced that's what my M is doing, I've had experience of dysfunctional BFs doing it in the past and their M O is the same. It's obvious that once she realised that I wouldn't (couldn't) put her first that that's when she started to push me away and then because I didn't / couldn't cave in she upped the anti and pushed further and harder. I'm suspecting that because she can't get her own way that she's going to accuse me of 'leaving her' so she can conveniently play the victim and get to say she knew it would happen, in other words she'd get to be right. I've noticed other people say that they feel like they can't win, this is why I feel like I can't win. In my Ms mind I need to be punished and it's probably the only way she can slur her own daughter yet remain an 'innocent' victim. FWIW my grandmother (my dad's mum) made the same moves with various family members and got great results, plenty of sympathy and attention for her and the perpetrator was shamefully cast out.

What does everyone do when flying monkeys, who know nothing about what's been going on over the years, appear. I know they think they are doing the right thing. I don't really want to put them in the picture and DH does.