"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Glad you're feeling ok lenl. Im sure there will be more change back behaviour but every single interaction where you don't emotionally engage is a victory in itself.

I'm feeling stressed about work tomorrow. I have to work with a narcissist. It is my own business and I am technically in charge but I realise now she has actually been passive aggressively battling me for power for years. I have known her outside work for years and years, probably the only reason we have ever been 'friends' and she ended up working for me was because I was programmed to acquiesce to this sort of relationship from childhood. We are totally enmeshed with zero boundaries, I didn't have any idea it was dysfunctional.

So, this arrangement has actually been preventing me from developing the business and pursuing my plans, again without me realising. I have read a million books on how to implement change in the workplace but I've been so frustrated. Not one of the techniques have worked because she has been scuppering every single initiative.

So I have to extricate myself from this situation. I don't think there is any way I could get her to leave, and there's no chance of her going of her own accord- she narcissistically thinks of the business as hers anyway. I have to tackle her, medium chill will only go so far here because I cannot leave her to sort herself out as I know from experience she will deliberately stir up issues amongst the rest of the team (nothing that i could ever take up as a disciplinary issue unfortunately). I feel very trapped. She keeps me quiet by alternately responding very aggressively to even the tiniest change to the status quo or turning on the tears (and I mean really turning them on). Just like my m and just like her she won't respond to logic or reason, just continues hysterically applying tears/anger until you finally give in out of sheer exhaustion. Not looking forward to it at all...

Was looking for this thread yesterday.. the Relationship board moves so fast I think it must have been on the 3/4 page!

Currently reading through Pete Walker's PTSD book. Highlighting stuff.. a lot of stuff.

I have a few questions..

If what you are experiencing is childhood/CPTSD-related, do you find anti-depressants help? - to what extent?

I'm having trouble getting access to any therapy (after 3+ years of being referred to NHS MH services).. in your experiences, does the NHS recognise the stuff that Pete Walker (and Richard Grannon etc) talk about and recognise CPSTD as a 'thing', how do they respond when you talk about this stuff, or tend to mis-diagnose - do they take you seriously? Richard Grannon seems to be same in one video that the DSM doesn't recognise CPTSD?

My own personal take on anti depressants is that it masks your feelings so if things are very, very bad then they can be a lifesaver and get you through the worst of it. If your aim is to 'work through it' psychologically then it can slow it down, that might be good if otherwise it would be overwhelming or it might prevent you from getting down into old repressed emotions to release them.
Personally I have found listening to guided meditations really useful. There are loads of free ones on YouTube and plenty for anxiety/depression/insomnia and it does help me go to sleep and I do think I feel a little brighter in the mornings.
i haven't even attempted to get therapy on the NHS as waiting lists are long and I'm not a big fan of the medical world. I've had private hypnotherapy which has helped and has been worth every single penny for the improvement. I have read and read and read and journalled too which has added to the effectiveness of the hypnotherapy.
Good luck.

Hi everyone, hope you all ok this morning

I've not been on here for a week or two so I need to catch up on the thread, but in the mean time I would appreciate some opinions on something that's niggling me. Sorry if I'm repeating some things...

I've not seen my narc M for four months after her last rage which was the breaking point for me. And although I do feel that NC was my 'choice' if that's the right word, she's not made any effort to contact me to apologise or try and see the DC in that time, which I believe is a big fat message from her that I'm being punished/and or that she just doesn't give a shit. I really don't miss her at all, and the lack of disruption is absolutely wonderful, but that's not to say it doesn't still hurt

My DC have hardly mentioned her and don't seem affected - they are old enough to know what's happened and seem quite happy to not have her around - maybe because over the years they've witnessed how horrible she can be, particularly to me.

But I am trying to maintain a relationship with my (GChild) DSis, which is hard because on the one hand she will say she knows exactly what our M is like, but on the other hand she wants to keep out of it and still sees our M several times a week - they are, I think, 'enmeshed'. TBH the main reason I am trying is because my DC like to see their cousins and vice versa.

So anyway, I've kind of been avoiding DSis a bit because last time I saw her she mentioned (again) that she wants to have my DC sleepover at hers soon - something we've always done. Problem is, my Dsis has no control over whether our M is at her house or not - she has her own key and comes and goes as she pleases - and stays overnight a few nights a week usually. But since my going NC, my DC haven't had contact with my M either, and I want it to stay that way.

So this is the problem - firstly I am useless at saying no. I want to tell my Dsis my DC can't stay at hers because even if she says she won't have our M there at the same time, I know it's not really up to her - basically our M would just turn up and my Dsis wouldn't be able/willing to tell her to leave. So I just keep saying 'hmm yes' then changing the subject. But I will be spending the day with her at the end of the week and I know she will want to 'make a date'.

Secondly I am wondering if I am just being a paranoid drama queen about this. In reality I don't know if my M would actually do or say anything bad if she saw my DC - although guilt tripping about missing them would be v likely. But when I think about it all, I feel such raging anger towards her for the way she treated me as a child, I can't bear the thought of her going anywhere near the little people I love most in the world (ie my children).

DH just keeps saying (he agrees with me BTW) that I have to be firm and say I would love the cousins to all get together but it needs to be in our home because that's the only way I can guarantee my M won't be there.

But I'm so crap at things like this. Am I being paranoid and making a drama out of nothing?

Sorry for humongous brain dump...

Flump that is quite a dilemma. Maybe you could examine what your feelings are when you imagine yourself saying this to your DSis. Maybe because she is still enmeshed with your M you feel as though you are actually saying it to your M? Even though from what you say I think your DSis would, if not completely understand, then at least be reasonable about it. (I might be wrong there - obvs you know your DSis best!)

FWIW no I don't think you are making a drama out of nothing. I think your DH is right and putting those boundaries in place is the right thing to do. If you don't, you will keep coming up against the same problem over and over again.

One way around it would be to have the conversation by phone prior to seeing your DSis. You could use the excuse that you don't want to have the conversation when your DC are present, in case they overhear. The advantage of a phone call is that you can have a script prepared and/or have DH beside you for moral support.

Thanks Spare, I think you've hit the nail on the head that it almost feels as if I'm confronting our M - and also that Dsis has made it clear lately that she doesn't want to talk about it. I suppose by telling her I don't want to do the sleepover because of our M, I am forcing the situation in her face, although I don't think that's my fault.

I am trying to look at this as a bit of practice at setting boundaries. I had some planned to set with my M, but since the shit hit the fan I never actually got the opportunity to set any with her...but I suppose this issue with my Dsis is just as much of a boundary I need to set as any other. I hate the whole situation though - I just want everybody to magically understand and stop putting me in awkward situations.

Sorry lots of 'situations' there

Hi everyone. Thank you so much for all your comments about M's comment on the "sports" thing. I've been thinking a lot about this idea that she doesn't see (or want to see) me, she just sees the me that suits her. It makes a lot of sense and it makes me realise that there is so much of me that she just doesn't know. It all feels very restrictive.

There is a big family thing this weekend and I feel sick with dread about it. I've got constant nightmare scenarios going through my head. It's silly because it will be fine. It will be hard work and there'll be a bunch of passive aggressive shit but it will be fine. I just feel so anxious. And so hurt by it all.

Goodwife - I read your post but saw you withdrew it. Are you ok?

Bestfakesmile - that sounds like a dreadful situation. Can you seek legal advice about it? If it's your business there must be a way to get rid of her? I know very little about these things In the mean time I hope you can find ways to cope, it sounds really tough. I don't know about you but I find people like that almost unbearable because they are such massive triggers as well as being incredibly annoying on their own.

Tiggers Personally I'm not keen on medication. The thing is that trauma can't be fixed by chemicals, it can only be fixed by therapy and healing work. Medication can make thing worse or more complicated, and it can make it difficult to work on your issues. Having said that, I do think it does sometimes have a place in crisis/ acute situations. I hope I haven't offended anyone who is pro-medication! What are you trying at the moment - do you have much in the way of strategies to cope? Exercise, sleep, meditation, being creative, journalling, support network etc?

I went down the private route for therapy. Is that an option for you? Lots of counselling centres offer reduced rates or let you choose what you can pay from a scale.

Your last question about diagnosis - I don't know about the NHS and CPTSD. What I do know is that the NHS is weak with post-traumatic stress in general. They work on a psychiatric illness model, which is different to a trauma-based approach. Trauma needs treating with therapy, often long term, and that's not something the NHS can always offer because it is expensive.

The important thing is that you know what the problem is, and that will help you to work out what help and treatment you need. My brain is a bit all over the place right now but I hope that helps.

Flump that sounds so difficult. It's easy to say set some boundaries but I know how suffocating it is when it's your own family. I'm trying to think of ways to avoid talking about it but to be honest I think you're going to need to just be honest. That said, you don't need to go into any detail at all and you can keep it light. You could just simply say you're not up for it this time because you don't want to risk M dropping in, happy to do it at yours instead, how about x date or x date. And if it starts to become an issue you could just say you don't want to go into it or make it an issue, it's just not going to work this year. Terrifying in reality though I know!

Flump I agree with your DH. They get together at yours or not at all. I've not seen how old your DC are but my eldest would go ballistic if he was somewhere my Mum (very much like yours) would just turn up.

She used to have a key for this place. Well actually she still does but I went NC last week and she daren't use it now because I'm home all the time. However he (ds16) has been home alone a few times when I've been at work and she's just turned up to mow the lawn/complain about the state of the house/etc. He suffers anxiety so flips at me when I get home about it.

My Dad also was going to take him to prom but because she wanted to go with them in the car ds refused to go.

She had started to subject ds to the same passive aggressive controlling behaviour she has used on me. So frankly I am glad I have an excuse to move and he'll be away from her.

Hi Chest I like your suggestion of 'keeping it light'. In my head I keep imagining sitting DSis down with a grim face and having a big awkward conversation... which I'm dreading. Your 'light' version sounds much less scary . I might even write it down somewhere as a 'prompt' . I know that sounds nuts but my thoughts can go a bit muddled and mushed when I'm stressed out...

Sorry to hear you have a big 'do' to face. Could it be that the fact that there will be lots of people there be a positive thing - I'm thinking that you can use other (select) people as a human shield against your M's behaviour? If you make sure you're not on your own with her at any point, will she behave herself in front of certain other people?

Pulling you sound like you've had an awful time too - my M had/has a key to my house too, not just DS's, and would just walk in whenever she felt like it, no knocking first. It used to drive us all nuts. But since our big fall out I changed the lock. The feeling of relief that my home was my own again was amazing!

My eldest DC is an adult now (still living at home) and he is quite resolute about it all. He heard some of the awful things she shouted at me during her last 'rage' and I will never forget, when I put the phone down he came and sat next to me and said that I need to stop seeing her as this all powerful monster but as the sad, pathetic old woman she is - and that I can either choose to make this the start of something, or the end of it. Glad he's got more sense that I have

My younger too are a bit more tricky - it's as if she gave up trying with my eldest a long time ago - she probably sensed he could see right through her. But my other two (young teen/pre-teen) were starting to get more and more of her guilt-tripping and her generally trying to make them feel bad about not giving her all their attention & not loving her the most (seriously!). So they had started to pretty much vacate to their rooms whenever she turned up. That would result in her telling me and extended family that my family is 'a real shame, they never spend any time together, all off in their separate rooms and not talking'. Well actually mother, that's only when you turn up because nobody wants to be around you!' .

But yes, I also see signs that my younger two have been quite stressed about it all. Which makes me more determined to keep my M away from them. Unfortunately it also makes me feel really guilty that I let that toxic old witch get anywhere near them in the first place

Younger two that should be - apologies to MN Grammar Police

Flump I cannot begin to describe how relieved I am to be moving away. She is the cause of 85% of my anxiety. The other 15% is down to my ex who is effectively the same personality type as Mum. You know even typing that word gives me anxiety.

I am breaking the cycle of abuse in my family. Bit by bit, day by day. My kids will not suffer like I did. Stuff her. We will all be happy without her.

Hi all, not been on here for a while. Am unofficially NC with my M. She's annoyed with me about something but hasn't told me what and so hasn't contacted me. I'm currently treating this as the end of my relationship with her. Although I'm sad for the fact that I don't have loving parents I'm mostly relieved. I think going NC for me means that I don't get to pretend to myself that everything is fine and normal with my family. My M is abusive, quite possibly has NPD and my F just lets her get on with it for a quiet life. In the past when she hadn't contacted me, I would be on edge waiting for her to call or email and demand my immediate attention. Eventually I would contact her to get it over with and she would tell me what I had done that was so terrible. Now I feel different, each day that I have nothing to do with her I feel slightly stronger. I don't feel like a scared child anymore, which can only be a good thing as I have 2 small children of my own.
to everyone dealing with this, after 38 years I'm starting to find my way through this x

flump I assume your DH also wants your M to have nothing to do with your DCs. If it were me I would use this as the reason (not necessarily out loud to your sister but in your own head), sometimes it can make it easier if you feel the decision isn't just yours alone.

Monday was a v weird day. My team member/frenemy obviously picked up on my new less manipulable self pretty quickly. But in a way it turned out ok. It was as if me not responding as I would normally do made her determined to 'get' me. She is the classic victimised narcissist so her life is an absolute catalogue of disasters and she must be acquiesced to because it would be heartless of me to not pander to her every whim after all she has been through... you get the gist. So because those usual more not-so-subtle ways didn't work she brought out the big guns in exactly the same way as my m did when she saw me standing up to her. There was loads of manipulative shit going on but I was most annoyed when started re-writing history just like my m did. In a way though it was good to have her expose herself in such a desperate way, it makes it really clear just how narcisstic she actually is, I'm definitely not imagining things and no wonder it's been so hard to deal with when she is a liar and a manipulator. I know I won't be taken in by it again. It's just going to be hard work withstanding the heavy artillery as she tries to get me to cave in. A big attack will come soon, she will manufacture a circumstance. I need to get as much support onside before it happens. I have a plan and it's very cunning.

Sorry, hi everyone. welcome to the thread sleepy hay

Sleepyhay, it sounds like you are doing the right thing to go NC, just stay strong. It may be that eventually she will contact you, just because she misses narcisstic supply from you, but even when she does, stay even stronger.

You deserve to be treated well by those around you, if they don't treat you well they don't get to be around you.

bestfakesmile it's funny how similar these people are, to the point where you can predict what they'll do next. At least you're expecting it.
I don't doubt my M will contact me at some point, either my DDs birthdays or Christmas. I'm just done now though and the longer she leaves it the more able I'll feel to be able to tell her to stay out of my life. I'm sure she's convinced her lack of contact is a punishment

So I saw Dsis today - and had my reply ready in my head for when she brought up the subject of a sleepover.

But when she did it was when we were all sitting together with the DC, eating lunch. So I just said 'yes sure, they can all come back to mine tonight'. The DC were all happy with that and then the conversation moved on to something else. Later on when they weren't around I was trying to psych myself up to saying 'look, about my DC staying at yours...' but I couldn't do it. Partly because I'm a huge wuss, but also because we hadn't mentioned her all day and I didn't want to because it would have spoilt a nice day.

So now I'm sitting here with a very full house , wondering if my Dsis will be it up again when she collects them tomorrow. Somebody please give me a kick up the arse...

Btw sleepy DH did say he doesn't mind if I say he doesn't want them to stay over, or at least that we both don't want them to, if it makes it easier. But at this rate I'm going to have to get him to do it for me

Bad taste flump, don't feel bad for finding this hard. You have been trained since birth to repress your feelings and needs, it's hardly surprising that expressing yourself is a challenge. But, you can do it, you have every right to do it, you are responsible for your own dc and can make whatever choice you feel is best for them. Feel the fear but do it anyway!

Well done bad this is never easy!

Morning all!

Sorry I've been so quiet the last few weeks... school holidays.

Anyway, it's nearly 1000 posts now so I started a new thread.

Cheers!

Ah thanks too - hope you're doing ok?

Have just posted on new thread