"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Nobullshit like Isolated I am struggling with the awfulness of what you describe. I just want you to know that we are all behind you. This thread is great for support and advice and has really helped me and I'm really glad writing it down here has helped you.

Thanks so much @isolated and @SpareBedroom it's taken me years to be able to talk about it all, it's nice to have a place to do that with no judgment.

It's heartbreaking reading all the other stories on these threads, I'm sorry to everyone that has had a bad start in life.

Huge unmumsnetty hugs to everyone

Hello Nobullshit (how do I make usernames go bold?!). I'm so sorry about what you went through. You say that this thread is nonjudgemental and it is that, and a safe place too. But it just made me think, how could anyone judge you for being abused? That would be so wrong. A hug for you now and for the child you were that should never ever have been hurt, but deserved to be loved and cherished.

@Slowtrain2dawn you put the @sign before the name to make it bold.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've been judged, when I mention I grew up in a children's home people stop talking to me, when I've mentioned my story to people I get close too, they drop me and never want to speak to me again. What I've mentioned on the thread is just the tip of the iceberg.

I've moved away now from the area I grew up in, as everyone knew who I was, I was involved in quite a big court case which made the headlines too, I was abused by my social worker in the children's home. Have probably just outed myself to anyone that knows me now. But I've got to the point in life where I just don't care anymore. None of this was my fault, so why should I feel embarrassed or guilty. I never made their decisions to behave in the way they did. I was a child.

Yes I grew up in a children's home, and I know a lot of stigma is attached to that, but again it wasn't my fault or my decision. I just wish people would understand that, I'm not the lowest society has to offer just because of my childhood.

I know everyone gets judged on things from time to time, but loosing friends and other relationships because of this, it stings. It's taken me years of therapy to know that none of this was my fault. So why should I be judged on someone else's actions. I don't want people to feel sorry for me, I just want the same respect other people get.

Sorry for the rant, just realised how long this is. I just get very frustrated with it all. X

You deserve that respect @nobullshitallowed! Sorry I hope you didn't think I was minimising the fact that people do judge. I know they do, it just horrifies me. When I meet people who have been through so much I am just in awe of their strength.

No of course I don't @Slowtrain2dawn

Thankyou so much for your replies. Xx

@treaclechin - your meltdown sounds like a huge step, as a pp said ( sorry I lose posts if I scroll back and forth so can't check who the wise person was!) we are often conditioned not to express certain emotions and although it was painful you were able to rage and cry, with someone who didn't abandon you because of it.
Big bunch of CUT flowers.

This is going to seem a really trite question I think, but how does anyone else deal with the 'how's your mum?' question? I met an old friend from university yesterday who I only see every few years. I got that question followed by a long list of stuff she's been doing with her own (perfectly normal) parents. The 'we're not close' response only really works with someone you don't already know. As far as she was concerned, I'd had a 'perfectly normal' relationship with my M on every other occasion that we'd met, so saying 'we're not close' would have been met with shock and disbelief. I made some noncommittal reply and changed the subject, but it felt really awkward.

Though reading that back, maybe I'm just too worried about her response and I shouldn't be?

@nobullshit I have been through some horrific stuff that I can't post about here but I too have been heartily judged by so many people, ditched by friends, treated nastily, all sorts. It's just not fair. I didn't choose what happened or what that did to me! Yet I carry the shame and I hide the secrets. I am only just starting to think, you know what. Maybe it's OK to be me. To say, this is me, take it or leave it. Hard to do because I don't want anyone to take the second option - but to be fair if I keep it all secret and they would have been a 'leave it' person, I end up feeling frustrated by how superficial they are or how we are just on such a different wavelength. So maybe better to be open from the start? I don't know. It's scary. I'm very sorry you have suffered through so much, and hope that being here helps you in your journey.

@treacle I go along with it then change subject and feel guilty :D not the most useful answer, I know!!

Oh sorry @spare the last post was for you not @treacle!

Question. I posted this yesterday but this thread moves fast at the moment!

My sibling has a lot of issues, as do all of us but that's this sibling's role right now, I'm not very interesting at the moment I don't think. It is very likely sibling will soon move back to parents'. This would be a disaster for sibling's mental health and life in general. I feel complicit watching it happen. Should I confront M? Don't think she would hear it though and what would I say? Should I confront sibling? But might scare them off from me? Should I do nothing? I think sibling does know but doesn't seem to want/ be able to do much about it. I think they are still very controlled by M, despite being a bit awakened.

Needless to say there is a lot more background to it that I can't post but would really appreciate any opinions. Thanks :)

Chest thank you. I think I just have to get on with it and muddle through as part of the LC deal!

I'm sorry your previous question got lost. It is fast-moving at the moment!

My instinct would be not to speak to your M at all, whatever happens.

As to your sibling, you could say something, but with the proviso that her actions are her responsibility and not yours - so if she doesn't listen to you that's not your fault in any way.

I can't remember exactly what your circumstances were, but what you wouldn't want to do is get drawn back into a family role you thought you'd escaped.

Sorry, sibling might be a he. I just assumed gender because mine is a she!

Chest do you think your sibling is aware how moving back home will affect her? Do you think they have an understanding of the dysfunctional dynamic and what's likely to happen to them? If so - if there's nothing new factually that you can share - I don't think there's much point in confronting them. People come to this truth in their own time, you can't lead them to it. They might even end up moving from dependency on your parents to dependency on you and fuck that because it's no healthier, and you've served your time!

spare I hate that question "how's your mum". I always imagine that if I share anything from "we're not close" to the full gory details, the other person is just forming the opinion that I'm a difficult person. You know and I know the people who mind don't matter etc but I'd like to just be able to get through these casual enquiries without having to prejudice the other person against me.

nobullshit hi, and bloody hell, what a struggle you have had. People are such arseholes. I saw a post on here (AIBU I think) where someone complained about HVs and she mentioned she'd been in care (as a possible explanation for why the HVs were taking a heavy interest in her). Within 2 pages she'd been asked if she was on drugs, if she was unemployed, and if she had been a victim of domestic violence. It was like well done Mumsnet, way to trot out the totally unthinking prejudices. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with people really. I sometimes think that fucked up and all as we might be, we're healing ourselves to a place that is healthier than the average person.

I find it really hard to imagine having a proper mum. I can just about manage it if I think about our upstairs neighbour from when I was a kid or any one of a number of the women I grew up near. I really miss them. There were so many really lovely people literally an arm's reach away from me but I was stuck in the house with my mother.

Treacle that is awesome. Bloody hell. I'm so glad you felt better afterwards, that's totally how it's supposed to work

Hi toomuchtooold,

re your comment:-
"People are such arseholes. I saw a post on here (AIBU I think) where someone complained about HVs and she mentioned she'd been in care (as a possible explanation for why the HVs were taking a heavy interest in her). Within 2 pages she'd been asked if she was on drugs, if she was unemployed, and if she had been a victim of domestic violence. It was like well done Mumsnet, way to trot out the totally unthinking prejudices. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with people really"

I was going to say the self same thing but have not been able to log on here till now.

I also came across a thread on MN in the relationships section that went downhill like that. Such Judgey McJudgersons who try to blame the victim do so because they came from a "perfect family" and have absolutely no idea how damaging toxic behaviour can be (that was patently obvious given some of the responses), or they have resigned themselves to living in their own domestic hell and want to brick up the escape tunnel for everyone else too.

Hi again, (posted few threads ago, son with a guide dog)

Can I ask how you all make sure you don't pass the toxicity down to your own children?

My gran was the perfect mother (to my mum) till about 11 then was a toxic manipulative cow. My mum did exactly the same thing. I have studied this in as black and white terms as I can to deal with it. I know what my mum is and therefore can deal with it. It's an exhausting but effective strategy.

Anyway my ds is 7 and the apple of my eye. I go to any length to make his life a happy one. But my mum and gran did the same. How do you spot the signs in yourself? It would crush me if he dealt with me the way I deal with my mum.

Her big areas are: being waaay to involved, extreme mood swings, rage, controlling behaviour, isolating and rescuing.

I've asked my DP to pull me up on anything approaching this but reliant on too many other things.

I always get such support here, the first time I posted I was sure I would be sent off with my tail between my legs.

You have two qualities that both your mother and her mother lack; empathy and insight. Your mother did not go the distance in trying to make your life a happy one; in particular when you became older and had more opinions of your own she saw that as a threat to tear down.

Toxic stuff can and does go down the generations; you still have a choice here and you do not have to repeat the same old mistakes that your mother and your nan (and likely as well her own parents) did. It can and it looks like it will stop with you.

Many now adult children of toxic parents have this fear that they are going to turn out just like their parents but that rarely if ever happens because they can see just how wrong it was for them to be treated like that.

Well I hope so, more than hope I have too. End the cycle. I've thought about sending myself emails to arrive every year (if this is possible) asking myself how I am behaving.

Toxic was normal in my family so I worry that it would become normal again.

Thank you for the flowers traintodawn I LOVE them

Thank you toomuch I totally thought I'd lost it, the plot. I didn't recognise it as an emotional flashback but looking back I now think it was. Two things stand out, one is I actually felt those emotions, they were as real as real can be and second, I know that I said that I was full of self pity but it wasn't that, I might have sounded like I was but it wasn't self pity, it was real and afterwards once I'd calmed down I immediately went to trott down the path to feel shame and embarrassment (out of habit?) but I only took a tiny tiptoe down there and pulled back. I didn't feel ashamed and I still don't. I apologised if I worried my OH but I didn't apologise for how I felt. Major breakthrough. And you're right traintodawn, I wasn't abandoned.

Nobullallowed It's so awful that what was totally beyond your control can follow you about like that. Some people are just absolute ignorant bellends. xx

Treacle I think the fact that it didn't have that colour of toxic shame to it means that this is probably a real emotion coming out. That's really brilliant!
Is it possible that rather than self pity, you were full of self compassion?

Oh, has anyone seen Broken on BBC? It's a very hard watch (a Jimmy McGovern series about a priest in a really poor neighbourhood), but it's really good, and what was really interesting for us is that the priest in it has flashbacks to an abusive childhood. There was bits of it I could hardly watch, so IDK, you might find it triggering, but I'm just really glad to see someone trying to write about it.

Oh and slowtrain you make names (or whatever) go bold by putting asterisks before and after them. Like this, but without the spaces:

Bold: hello gives hello
Underline: hello gives hello
Italics: hello gives hello
Strikethrough: hello gives hello

Nonibaloni how likely is it do you think that your M ever worried that she would repeat the patterns of her own M with you? Probably not likely at all. The very fact that you're aware enough to be thinking about it means that it probably won't happen.

Don't send yourself yearly emails - take a leaf out of Treacle's book and send yourself yearly flowers, to remind yourself of what a great mum you are being and will continue to be.

I have just found the emojis in the mobile app so here's some to start you off.

Longtime lurker. Something is bothering me and I need to do a brain dump!

I'm feeling very confused - I think that my Dad's wife (I can't call her stepmother as she's never treated me as a stepchild) has, and still is, emotionally abusing me. I have known her since I was 8, and am now in my 40s. As a child she was sometimes nice, but very often snide towards me, and I never felt welcome seeing my Dad. At one point, I was apparently so annoying that she strangled me. No physical damage was done, but it is really haunting me. Today, there are pictures of her birth children all over the house, but nothing of me or my brother. I was even asked to frame them for her as a christmas present! Everyone plays happy families but things like this go on. It's very odd - I feel like I'm in a horror movie. Whenever I'm around her I find myself being super nice and it's really exhausting. When we make eye contact I feel a sort of chill - it's very unnerving. She's very stepford wife-y but occassionally loses it, and I have always found myself being calm in response, which also exhausts me. I absolutely dread seeing her. I'm doing so on Sunday, and it's cast a shadow over the week. My Dad has dementia and always wants to see me. I always thought that we had a good relationship, but looking back I see that he has completely failed to protect me from his wife's cold, passive, emotional abuse. Now that he is ill, it's her that I have to deal with as he can't handle a phone call. I never thought I would say this, but I can't wait for him to die so that I don't have to have any contact with her. They live about 2 miles away and want constant contact. Recently she told me how she's a "forgiving" person, which I think was directed at me. Surely I never behaved so badly that I deserved strangulation? My DH has now told me that he hates her, which I have to agree with. I fantasise about letting my mask slip, and demolishing her, frankly. That's it really .

I had to google self compassion Toomuch, I wasn't sure what it meant/was. Yes, it's possible because even though I was out of control emotion wise I was being as honest as I could about how I felt and why rather than pushing away or taking offence. I think this might have been me acknowledging where the pain really came from (in the past) and realising just how much it had shaped how I felt about myself. I didn't feel shame or even blame, just overwhelming sadness. It wasn't a conscious choice, it came from nowhere at a really inconvenient time and totally caught me off guard but I do believe the reading I've been doing and the acceptance and validation I've received from here was what ultimately kept me focused. It's strange because no way would I say I enjoyed it but yet I'm glad it happened. I'd rather it not happen again though!

I woke from a dream today where someone (I don't know who, they were faceless) was explaining to me that they weren't sure if they loved me or wanted me. When I woke I immediately thought, that's fine but if you don't want me or don't know if you want me then I'm no longer making myself available to you. I don't know where that thought came from but it made sense because I feel I've tried far too hard at times often with the wrong sort of people. If I believed in guardian angels I'd say that was a gift from mine.

I saw my parents today, mum was even more miserable than ever. I made pleasant chitty chatty small talk. She made zero effort, face like a slapped arse, barely looked at me, made the occasional grunt and rolled her eyes, never asked how I was, had another sly dig about my son then she cut the visit short and didn't say goodbye, just put her coat on and left. My dad just looked fed up. 30 minutes I was with them. I feel indifferent (I think), a few months ago I'd have been upset, or concerned or felt responsible, but I'd have also have jumped through hoops to cheer her up but I just don't see that as my job anymore.