"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Lenl,

re your comment:-
"I pretty much moved in with my first boyfriend at 14"

It was probably also preferable to life at home.

That comment amongst many you have written also clearly shows me how utterly awful not just to say abusive your home life was. Generally speaking moving in at that age as you now realise is not something that the average 14 year old does.

I think you panicked and got your posts removed because its now beginning to dawn on you exactly just how messed up your family of origin are. I think you have turned out as you are in spite of her and not because of her; you've basically brought your own self up in many ways.

And no she is not actually good in a kind of acute crisis situation, what evidence can you show to suggest otherwise?. She cannot be trusted to not take your son to somewhere where you do not want him to go. She knew very well what she was doing when she sat on the grass with your son; its her saying a big F You to you.

My MIL also likes a sense of being useful and helpful to others. It is in her case not done out of any sense of altruism but more like oh aren't I a good person?.

Re your comment:-
"I've realised I've never been allowed to be angry or actually really allowed to be needy unless it suits"

And that is another hallmark amongst many re toxic parents. They can and do make your issues all about them, their needs matter and yours do not.

If you have considered getting a GPS tracker into the change bag to see where they go its necessary to keep you and your son well away from your mother now. She is really not worthy of the term.

She has had a rubbish childhood and was abused but instead of seeking the necessary help or perhaps even wanting to she used drugs and dumped all her toxic crap from her own past on your sister and you. Many people also have crap childhoods and do not end up using either to forget or try and fill their emotional void.

All the adults around you during your childhood let you down abjectly. Your sister and you continue to be let down by her and she continues to ride rough shod over any boundary you care to set her now.

I would certainly keep your son and you well away from her from now on; she will drag him down.

Hi still working on it,

It is not your fault your mother is like this, you did not make her this way. Her own family of origin did that, what if anything do you know about her own family background.

I would not let your dad off the hook here either as he has failed you as a parent as well.

You seem very much like an ACON and people from dysfunctional families end up playing roles. You are in this structure an adult child of a narcissist with her attendant weak enabler of a father (also commonly seen in narc family structures). If you have siblings they are more favoured.

I would suggest you look at the daughters of narcissistic mothers website if you have not already done so. You have been well trained by your mother here to serve her and put your own self last.

Your mistake here has been to allow your children to date to foster some kind of relationship with them here in spite of your own experiences of them. You have probably hoped that they would somehow behave better with your children this time around despite what you already know about them, many ACONs in particular seem to have some affinity or belief for that work of fiction. She is I think responsible primarily for you yourself developing an ED and your DD could well go the same way because of your mother's malign influences.

Toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparents too.
Honestly the best thing you can do for your children is to keep them well away from both your parents from now on; narcissists in particular make out for being deplorably bad as grandparents and already you are encountering problems with such really disordered of thinking people. Your children are simply being used as narcissistic supply by her and are being manipulated. You are still very much being manipulated by your mother into dancing to her tune.

What are the problems associated with going NC?. Is it pressure from wider family members for instance?.

Being more assertive and putting in boundaries only works up to a point. Narcissists do not like boundaries and will actively rail against any being set. Also you still seem to cower in her presence and particularly when she has one of her narc rages on.

Work on this further with your therapist. I sincerely hope that person has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. If he/she does then I would actually find someone else to work with.

Also you would not have tolerated any of your mother's behaviours re your children from a friend, your mother is no different.

Hi attila, thanks for replying. I have followed most of those links in the past- it was reading stately homes threads that helped me see some of my thinking and experience hasn't been OK and that maybe everything wasn't my fault.

It takes time to throw off 30+ yrs of conditioning and I do struggle with FOG. I even feel guilty and angry at myself that I didn't see this pre-kids, when cutting off would have been easier.

NC is hard to contemplate. It's all emotional abuse. Gaslighting, hidden stuff. Fall out from family I can just about take. The loss of my dad would be the worst thing. I am clear he let me down. But I'm also clear that he did just about enough to give me some ability to form positive adult relationships and although he didn't parent me adequately I can see he protected me from mum's worst behaviour. He was the only one who could tell her to stop, and then she would turn on him, but I do remember him shielding me. Things would have been a lot worse without him. My sibling who got all of mum''s 'love' is in an awful state - essentially unsheilded from mum''s mad thinking. So I see he failed me but I know I felt loved by him and he is old and I want to be there for him. NC with mum will prevent this. I'm also not that angry with the old people they have become. I'm angry with the parents that they failed to be during my childhood. So I don't want to hurt these frail people, who hurt me because they were themselves failed. NC will hurt them deeply. And it will be very upsetting to my children. I just don't know if I have the energy for the drama of it.

Therapist isn't keen on families together at any cost. I'm not sure what she thinks I should do. She talks about boundaries and not falling into appeasing my mum. And she has said that it's OK if I decide not to see them, it doesn't make me a bad person. So I don't feel pressure to maintain a relationship with them from therapy. I will take this to therapy. It has been hard facing this- it took me about 6 months of therapy before I could speak of mum without physically shaking.

Thanks again for replying. It helps to write it down and acknowledge everything.

"It's so hard I've spent my whole life seeing my mum as a good and kind person that to consider otherwise just feels so scary and I can feel my walls going up at the thought"

Lenl, I know exactly what you mean by that. It just encapsulates what has happened to me, I had no idea my mother was narcissistic and had emotionally neglected me, no idea at all. I thought she was only good and kind. Her manipulation was practically invisible because I was so primed for it, I'd been trained intensively and effectively since birth! There were no clues in her behaviour because she had so thoroughly conditioned me into instantly emotionally responding to the tiniest, slightest, implication of me being 'wrong'. She had also schooled me to believe she was the perfect mother and the programming was very thorough.

Any misgivings I had about the situation I just turned onto myself, there must be something wrong with me because I had a blissfully happy childhood so why do I feel shit all the time. I mean, I know I didn't really smile when I was young, and I didn't really sleep, and I just wanted to be on my own and I was so unhappy at school and all my friendships eventually turned sour and I've chosen unsuitable men, and I have a chronic (stress-induced) auto-immune condition that I've had since childhood. I have no authority as a parent and I have no authority at work. I am a workaholic and have issues with emotional eating and alcohol, and I am totally empty inside, and feel I have no identity but all that must be my own fault because I had a wonderful childhood....
How could I have been so duped into believing this!?!

We see all the things that are wrong with us and believe that we have caused it ourself we are so programmed into believing that we are wrong through and through.

Once she revealed some of her true colours, I suddenly saw it all and it can never be the same again. It has been quite traumatic to think my whole life is built on a lie, which is that I'm not important. It has influenced every decision I have ever made.

I think back to some of the times it was clearly communicated that I wasn't important, even on my own wedding day and even when I had my first child (her first grandchild) I didn't see that her behaviour was awful. Instead I felt guilty for being such an inconvenience to her by getting married and having a baby. How selfish of me!

Just wanted to say about the 'three of you against the world' bit.
A mother should protect her child against the world, but like most narcissists your mother has used you as a human shield.
I see that my mother has done it to me too and she has kept me so enmeshed in her that I have no identity of my own and am petrified to consider life without her. Therefore she can do whatever she likes with impunity, she knows you wouldn't dare to call her out. That has been the plan all along. I have called my mum out and she is giving me hell for it, its going to be a hard fight to emotionally separate from her but I am going to give it all I've got.
If I could start again knowing what I know now (and I've learnt a hell of a lot in just a month, I've been studying it full time!) I wouldn't call her out on it or even go no contact, both strategies are dramatic and drama only gives ammunition and fuel to the narcissist. I would just go grey rock on her, really, really slowly and really, really subtly. That is what I am going to do with the 'secondary narcissist' in my life and I think it will be a lot easier and far safer.

Hi stillworkingonit, Just spotted your post and there is lots of talk of children's relationships with grandparents who were abusive parents.
I'm theorising that the gps know that if they show any sign of abuse when the children are small you would go no contact immediately. So they wait it out, they behave like model grandparents, form a very strong bond with your child (mainly through indulgence), often caring for the child when parent is working and then once the child is older and the bond is very strong (so the child would protest if parent stopped contact). Only then do they start to test the boundaries of what you will tolerate, pushing and pushing at those boundaries like they always do.
In writing this I have just realised that my mum has started playing out a golden child/scapegoat scenario with dd and niece.

Bestfake- I just read your post and thought, oh shit that's describing it exactly. I really don't think it is deliberate or conscious. But it kind of doesn't matter, the effect is the same- forming a huge bond with my kids to inveigle herself into my life and now it's harder to distance myself. This is making me think hard things again about how problematic my parents are.

stillworkingonit, it isn't deliberate or conscious I think in most cases. They can act out the part of the perfect parent/grandparent and they're so self absorbed and vain that they genuinely believe their own act. Thats why they can act so hurt if you ever question it, again they really believe they are hurt too!
I don't think there would be many toxic parents (possibly none?) who didn't have some sort of toxic childhood themselves. But that doesn't mean they aren't responsible and can't be held accountable for their actions.
I've been reading on this website lately and found this article interesting www.womboflight.com/embrace-accountability-for-meaningful-change/
I know dm will never change and I'm ok with that. I realise its up to me to recognise how much pain her behaviour caused me and heal myself from within by removing her guilt-inducing voice from inside my head and replacing it with the nurturing voice I should have had all along.

I have seen her tonight and she tried to bait me and pull me in with literally dozens and dozens of attempts with her old tricks but I saw through them and gave her no emotional feedback, just medium chilled all the way through. Even when she brought up the 'issue' and said, in a martyr-like way, I could surely see how I had hurt her with that, I just played dumb and kept saying I couldn't quite understand what she was trying to say. She kept at it for quite a while and she was about to turn the tears on but then I had an opportunity to change the topic and clearly she'd got bored with repeating the same thing 10 times and getting no response from me so was easily distracted. I think narcissists are really quite stupid in some ways.
I'm really proud of myself. Medium Chill is my new best friend and I love the way it sounds really positive.

stillworkingonit, I know where you're coming from regarding your dad. I could have written everything you said about him. I don't have any easy answers - my dad died a few years before I went NC.

Regarding staying in contact and having strong boundaries... I think if you keep it simple and make it clear what the consequences will be of overstepping your boundaries (and you follow through) you can get them to stop doing one specific thing. But you're basically in a power struggle with them, and they will try and find other ways to wind you up. And if they don't, then they'll sulk and be awful to be around. I don't think there is a way to get them to understand how damaging their behaviour is or to see it from your point of view or anything like that.

bestfakesmile
I'm theorising that the gps know that if they show any sign of abuse when the children are small you would go no contact immediately. So they wait it out, they behave like model grandparents, form a very strong bond with your child (mainly through indulgence), often caring for the child when parent is working and then once the child is older and the bond is very strong (so the child would protest if parent stopped contact). Only then do they start to test the boundaries of what you will tolerate, pushing and pushing at those boundaries like they always do.

That's exactly what I suspect too. I think it's very similar to the golden child/scapegoat pattern that plays out with siblings. Our children are the golden children, and we remain the scapegoats. It allows them to gaslight us about our memories of childhood abuse ("look how nice I'm being to your kids. If I was horrible to you that must be because you were such an unlovable child"), and then as the kids get older, they can set them against us.

My mother seriously overplayed her hand on that one by trying to set my kids against one another. They were really little and too young to know what she was on about, but I could see it, and that was the end. She was really unsubtle too - as her scapegoat she picked DD2, who looks a lot more like me than DD1 does. She even used to call herself "mummy" when speaking to them, and me "gran", despite me reminding her repeatedly that it was the other way round.
Shudders

bestfakesmile that's a fantastic article. Thank you for linking it. I keep rereading it. It also reminded me of another article on that site that feels literally written for me www.womboflight.com/when-shame-feels-mothering-the-tragedy-of-parentified-daughters/
I'd love to go to one of her workshops but she doesn't appear to have UK plans any time soon. Well done on staying "medium chill" with your mother. It's not easy is it. What does medium chill look like?
I think you're right that it's best to slowly go grey rock. I think I'm starting that already but not consciously I just feel so distant and like my responses are so inauthentic that I minimise them as much as possible. I find myself unable to even make eye contact with her and feel awkward. She doesn't seem to notice.

toomuchtooold what scares me most is the way she might affect my children. I'm not sure how to fix it right now. Before I went on mat leave she had DS1 two full days a week. I'd like it to be less which will be easy for him as he is going to start at nursery but the assumption is she'll have DS2 for that time when I go back. I've got a few months to work it out. It's a dual issue I both worry how she is with them, don't trust her to do what she says and also dislike feeling beholden to her for doing such a favour for me.

Also *toomuchtooold" she used to refer to herself to mummy with him too!!!! Always creeped me out enormously but she just laughed like it was a normal mistake to make though I think she was defensive (read:knew it was weird). Mil has never made that mistake! Haven't heard it for awhile but again who knows when I'm not there.

She also refers to me, my sister and my sons as my little family and clearly sees me as an extension of her so my children as an extension of her too. It's all a bit unnerving really. She regularly declares that if it weren't for her none of us would be here and that I'm a "wonderful mummy, you're just like I was"... thing is I feel sorry for her I know her constant attempts to self validate stem from deep shame of being sexually abused. But feeling sorry for her as also kept me in my place for a long time and I need to be able to hold the two things separate - yes she did her best in the face of being a fuck but that doesn't change the harm done.

I'm glad I found this thread.

That should say - in the face of being a fuck up

Sorry if I am barging in on a conversation here, am too lazy to read through giant thread. I'm just wondering about part of the advice given at the top of the thread: "I'm not willing to give up on this." And the idea that the parent should work through things with you.

How about if they are just not capable of that? Not able to admit failure of any kind or enter into any sort of discussion, due to their own upbringing, fears, paranoia, etc.? Isn't it then mature and sensible to just accept that they are simply incapable of change - that they will always think you are wrong and, if anything, that they are the victim of your nasty accusations? To give up on the idea of working towards a fairer or better relationship and just live with the crumbs of pleasantness they are able to come up with, and do your best to ignore the sniping, if you don't think the drama of NC would be any better?

(For practical reasons we see each other in person maybe once a year anyway...)

Hi everyone, just catching up. Havent posted here in a few weeks.

Things have been ok atm, no big fall outs or arguments recently. Which has confused me because sometimes i think are my parents toxic? They can be ok. Then there are periods when they make me feel awful. But then i think do every family go through this. I don't know if im minimising in my head. Although when ive posted a few things on here some people have agreed that its not right. Just feeling a bit confused.

Has anyone else felt like this? Does it go through stages of nice and calm and then upset and drama with the family. I do kinda feel like if an arguement could start at any point.

Chocolatte I could have written your last post!

I think they go quiet because we are getting better at LC/grey-rocking/boundary setting etc. And so when you do that they start behaving to an extent, and you are so grateful that things have improved that you forget, a bit, how it used to be, because basically you never really wanted to believe your parents could be like that in the first place. And then you start questioning whether you were ever right at all - were they really that bad, etc etc... Of course they were though.

It's almost easier in some ways when they are still behaving badly, because then you feel justified.

Also in my case I'm the scapegoat and my DSis as the GC is still providing all the narc supply, so she doesn't need it from me. But DSis is starting to become aware I think, so it could all change for me if DSis stops playing ball with our M and our M starts looking to me for the supply instead.

I have been sleeping badly all week. I think it's because we are seeing my M tomorrow. Things are better between us because of everything I've said above, but I know I've changed. I'm less tolerant of her crap. I'm more aware of the rubbish she spouts and less inclined to tacitly agree with it. But one of the ways I was conditioned was that I was not allowed to disagree with her openly. So even doing that in my head is scary, and the thought of saying something out loud is worse. But at the same time, if I don't, I feel as though I am compromising some inner part of me. All of which is making me anxious.

Thank you to everyone who's posted links recently - they are all really helpful.

Lenl
It's a dual issue I both worry how she is with them, don't trust her to do what she says and also dislike feeling beholden to her for doing such a favour for me.

It doesn't sound like there's any upside to her having your DD. You know when your DS goes into nursery it would be the ideal time to nip it in the bud with your DD.

raven I just copy over the OP from the previous threads TBH (it's been going for like 10 years, and I've only been here for 2), and I've read the book and the excerpts that are on the OP, but I agree that confrontation is sometimes a waste of time. I didn't do any confrontation. I considered it, and asked for people's opinions on here about it, and decided not to try. I went NC as my mother had started crossing some boundaries with my kids.

My suspicion is that in the Toxic Parents book she includes that bit about confronting your parents just to ensure that if someone's reading the book whose parents genuinely tried their best and made mistakes, they're not going to end up NC because their kid read the wrong book. But I think many/most of us on here know in our hearts that our parents aren't the slightest bit interested in admitting blame or working on the relationship or anything like that.

Chocolate have you seen the cycle of abuse? In abusive relationships (including parent-child) there are periods of calm - there would need to be because otherwise people would just leave. That feeling that an argument could kick off at any time, that's like stage 1, tensions building.

spare yes excatly! I think I was the GC and my Dsis was the scapegoat but I think this has switched around now since I stick up for myself more now. I think she gets her supply from my Dsis too and also my DS. My parents have been on holiday so are more relaxed atm. I think I know if I disagree with anything soon though it could all blow up again and I'll be the outcast yet again. But then this confusion is in my head like you said making you think was it really as bad as I thought. And yes about the justification too.

toomuch I have done half of a course on domestic abuse but left the refuge before I could complete it. How naive of me to think that it didn't apply to mother daughter relationships.

raven hi. Like you I don't agree with the bit in the Toxic Parents book about working with your parent(s) or even trying to explain to them what the problem is. Why put yourself through that? I think the central problem with that idea is that if our parents are to truly change, the idea would have had to come from THEM. We can't make them change. We can only change ourselves.

Confronting them when they don't have any idea that they are doing anything wrong (because their behaviour is so engrained and has been going on for so long and has been justified by them in so many ways that their brains have kind of re-wired themselves to fit their fictitious reality) is just going to cause enormous upset and possibly ricochet around the rest of the extended family as well. So really all you can do is manage their behaviour by a) setting boundaries and b) if that doesn't work, by withdrawing contact either partially or totally.

In terms of healing yourself (which I think is where Susan Forward was going with the idea) try googling Alice Miller or Pete Walker. Their ideas that you have to heal your inner child by kind of 'parenting yourself' (I know it sounds wanky but the idea is sound) are really helpful.

I was thinking about trying to discuss things with my mother recently before a family visit, and decided not to bother because of the other members of the family, who have a lot more contact, living near her (as you say, SpareBedroom).

Then near the end of the visit, she said something sarcastic yet again and I just didn't want to let it go. It feels so cowardly letting it pass. I said she was being sarcastic, but she wouldn't even accept that and stormed off. Thinking I might as well discuss it with her now, I gave it a go, but she just told me to go away, didn't come down for the family meal or say goodbye when I left the country the next day. Haven't heard from her since. All for saying that she was sarcastic to me. (Me: You're an intelligent woman, we can discuss this! Her: YOU're being sarcastic!) I was obviously right the first time when I gave up on the idea of discussion as unrealistic.

I don't see her much, so am on low contact anyway - had just been hoping to get a better, more meaningful relationship with her. She's in her 70s. People my age often tell me how much they miss their mum when they are gone. I think I'll just feel guilty at not missing her "properly": I'll never be able to think of her entirely fondly. Sounds awful, doesn't it? Hope my own kids have happier memories.

After a sort of euphoria last night, I am just getting the emotional backlash now and am curled up in bed feeling very, very sad. I feel so trapped, I can feel it physically, my head aches, I have a massive knot in my stomach. I want to cry and shout and scream but not much will come out. I can't stop stuffing it down.

There is a part of me that feels like I want to just shut down and stop doing all the practical things that support 'the system' that I've been forced into. I feel like cinderella, but if i did stop doing what I do the whole edifice would come crashing down. Unfortunately, I need an escape plan first else it'll all come crashing down on me too. I feel like i just want to close down my business and walk away. I couldn't do it though as I have worked so very, very hard for so very, very long to make it a success. It is all so horribly enmeshed and feels like a trap I have been unconsciously weaving for myself, while M along with her flying monkey (also a massive narcissist) were rubbing their hands in glee as they watched me.

I did my own thread a while back now and I was given good advice and it was suggested I did my toes in here.

This is my story.

I grew up to the age of six with my parents and my younger sister. When I was six and she was 2 they both died and we were adopted separately but within the wider family. I long suspect that I was adopted by my parents because it was 'the right thing to do'.

They have their own DD, she is two years younger than me. She is and always has been the golden child. I was the one in trouble all the time.

The Courts suggested counselling for me (it's in my Doctors records) and my mother took me once and then said it wasn't needed any more. I spent the next 6 years sleepwalking, having nightmares and wetting the bed. Seemingly it was easier to deal with that than taking me to a therapist.

I didn't get love. I didn't get old 'I love you' and there were no kisses, hugs or just cuddling up. I would get a peck on the cheek at bedtime.

I grew up and literally fucked off. I moved 500 miles away and stayed there for 22 years. I came home twice in that time. My parents visited twice, to see my kids when they were born and my sister visited once.

I moved back 5 years ago. When I came back my sister told me that I wasn't to ask my parents to babysit my kids, they are 'very busy' and don't have time for babysitting. My parents have been picking my nephew up from school every Monday for 11 years and taking him home for dinner. I have asked them to look after my youngest once (she's now 11 - was 10 at the time) and was told no. It was to be for a few hours on a Saturday afternoon.

I see photos on facebook of my sister, parents, cousins etc all out doing family stuff. I am never invited. Every christmas my sister and her partner and their son go to my parents for the day. We are not invited. They don't have room. I have offered to host everyone here but my mum just says 'oh I don't think so'. It's all so fucking vague with her.

I took the decision to withdraw. I haven't seen my parents now for a few months. They live 2 miles away. My sister was about a mile away from them but has just moved closer. They are all a nice happy little family. I am the one that's just not wanted.

My dp is horrified. He can't understand why they treat me like this. I have always tried to make an effort but just can't do it anymore. I am disabled and have long term PTSD (caused by my parents death and the lack of counselling) as well as depression and anxiety.

My other sister, my bio sister, I am still very close with although she also had a really shit time growing up with her adoptive parents. She has been no contact with her adoptive mum for about 20 years now.

I wish I had the courage to confront my parents, especially my mum but I know it would come back on me, that I would be 'ungrateful' and all the 'things we have done for you' shit would be thrown at me. So I don't. But it's there, in my head.

My own kids, I tell them every day I love them, they gets hugs and kisses, just because. I hope they don't realise how much they have been left out as grandchildren while their grandson gets everything and all the attention. It makes me so bloody sad.

Sorry for the essay.

Mycatsapirate, sorry to hear your story and I'm so sorry you lost your birth parents when you were only six, that must have been incredibly traumatic and you should have been given that counselling you obviously needed. Instead, you were ignored and emotionally neglected. It sounds like you have done the right thing to distance yourself. I should get rid of them off Facebook too, you don't want to see what they are doing, and you don't want them to see you. Maybe just scrap Facebook altogether, its not great for an emotionally neglected person as you are only constantly reminded of all the 'normal' people with their loving families. Instead, enjoy your dc and the bond you still have with your sis, put your attention and energy there.
You do need to put even more attention though into your own healing from the double trauma of your parents' deaths and the subsequent emotional neglect from your adoptive family.
Can I ask why you moved back to be near them?

Hi everyone. I've had a name change (I was TreacleChin but it reminded me too much of my past so i've changed it).

Brief background, my Mum is a typical covert N, my dad is what I would describe as eternally trapped (his mum was an N too, he possibly thinks this is normal). In the space of about 3 months I have gone from high contact and sharing every personal detail and thought to very LC, meeting in public places and basically not taking a right lot of notice what she says.

My update is to just say that i'm doing okay thanks to all your support and advice. I never thought there would come a day when my M's criticisms would not sting but yet the day has arrived. I don't know why or how, but probably helped by the fact that she follows the exact same MO every time I see her, but today she was bitching away and I was totally unaffected.

I'm getting very good at spotting disordered thinking. Last week I was anxious about a dentist appointment, I wouldn't have told her but the receptionist rang whilst I was with her, rather than comfort or support me she went on and on and on about how it couldn't possibly be the fault of X (the dentist she sent me to when I was a child) as he was 'very nice' and even I had said that I liked him Today she went on and on and on getting all giddy about someone who she vaguely knows came to see her new house, and how she showed him round and made him coffee and biscuits. That last one might not sound so bad until you take into consideration that I (her only child ) still doesn't know her new address let alone have been offered a tour with biscuits.

To those who are thinking of having a chat with your parents about what they've done, if they're anything like my M, and they probably are, it's not worth your angst. It'll be a waste of time, emotion and the best you could hope for is to be even more confused. Worse case is they'll use it against you ... forever.

To those that are feeling that they are making okay grandparents. Be on your guard. I thought mine made a lovely grandparent but when I think back, it was like history repeating itself, she was wonderful until he hit a certain age then she dropped him hard like a brick. For years she used to do this thing for Mother's day (I was a single parent at the time) where she would take him shopping so he could chose me a lovely gift and a card but then one year, bam, she didn't bother. There was no warning, no heads up, no nothing, when my son realised it was Mother's day and nothing had been sorted he didn't know what to do or say. It was a horrible uncomfortable position to put him in. Back then I didn't know what she was but I did sense that she was getting off on the backlash, the drama and the upset, she did nothing to help resolve it, she just stood there observing and taking it all in. Creepy as fuck.

Thanks to everyone who replied to my post the other day. It's been really helpful reading through parts of this discussion - some of it really strikes a chord. At the moment, I mainly feel a sense of terrible bereavement. I always believed that I had a perfect mother because that was what she told me (I remember her saying once that she felt sorry for children who didn't have her as a mother), and it's been very painful and confusing getting to the point where I'm no longer always sure that what I received from either of my parents is what I'd classify as "love" at all, and certainly not the unconditional love that they always told me it was. Did any of you find that you first really started to question your relationship with your parents once you had children of your own? I know I'm far from a perfect mother and that DD will probably have plenty to say about my parenting choices when she hits her teens, but some of my parents' decisions suddenly seemed inexplicable to me after I had DD. One very minor incident from when I was pretty young (somewhere between six and eight) just keeps going round and round in my head. I was having a conversation with my mother about her life experiences and I asked a naive question about whether she'd ever had any regrets about having children, because I was starting to be curious about motherhood and life choices and being a woman. My mother's reaction was, of course, to go off on one about how insulted she was and how could I say such a hurtful thing when she'd always been such a good mother, and, no, I'd really upset her and blah blah (emotional withdrawal, I ended up begging for forgiveness). I spent years feeling ashamed about that incident but, now I have DD, I know that my first reaction if she asked me a question like that would be to worry that she was feeling insecure and to rush to reassure her that she could not be a more wanted child, not to punish her with withdrawal. I guess what I'm trying to say, in a rambling way, is that over the last couple of years, I've started to be scared shitless that my parents always loved the idea of themselves as great parents, rather than loving me, and that their approval of me was conditional on my not challenging their self-image in any way. I'm frightened that I can't be a good parent if my childhood wasn't what I thought it was. I mean, I've always suffered from anxiety and depression (I think I was ten when I first properly considered suicide) but it seems so much more frightening to think that it might not all have been my fault.

Anxiousnew, I know exactly what you mean. My mother definitely loved the idea of herself as the perfect mother rather than actually loving me. She has told me implicitly and explicitly what a wonderful mother she is literally constantly my whole life.
But she wasn't. She was so self absorbed and careless of me that she didn't even bother telling me about periods. When we finally had the talk about it at school the teacher asked us if all our mums had talked to us about it, I was the only one whose mum hadn't said anything (obviously a letter went home so she knew I was having the talk). The one and only allusion to periods came a year or so later and she said to me 'well I suppose you'll be starting all that messy business soon' In a tone of disgust that implied I was bad and wrong for starting to show signs of puberty. When my periods did start I kept it secret for three years as I was so ashamed. I only eventually told her when she started implying that I would need to see the doctor as it was so late starting.
I've never, ever told anybody about this, not even dh. I'm still ashamed of myself and feel like it must have been my fault.
Now I have my dd it is even more inconceivable that my m contrived to keep me ignorant, scared and ashamed of it. Talking to dd was a hard thing to do as I had to overcome my own shame and desperately didn't want to pass it on but now am able to be totally open about periods with dd, as any mother should be, I know she is prepared for when they start. I'm looking forward to making a point of being positive about it with her when the time comes.