"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

"Am I an awful person? I feel it is my fault because I am the one who has changed"

Of course you are not an awful person. You have simply changed how you react to her; you have woken up from this state whereby she has trained you to serve her at great cost to your own self. Your mother is not going to alter any as you rightly realise.

May I ask why you want to continue a relationship with your mother at all if no contact is not something you can currently countenance?. I think that you being in a no contact position with your mother will be infact liberating to you going forward.

ChestOfDrawers
When I speak to M I feel so distant and detached and critical. I notice all the shit. I never used to. I used to lap up time with her I thoight we were so close. Am I an awful person? I feel it is my fault because I am the one who has changed.

I could have written this paragraph! Each part of it is how I feel exacty. I don't think we are bad people. We've been 'trained' (not necessarily conciously) by our mothers to accept all that they say and do. It was a question of survival to our child minds when we were little and to go against that is so hard as that bit inside us that is still a child thinks that "going against mother = death"

I've been reading this site a lot these posts might be useful to you
bestfakesmile shared this one the other day::
www.womboflight.com/embrace-accountability-for-meaningful-change/

And

www.womboflight.com/guilt-gratitude-and-the-emerging-from-the-mother-wound/

Hi everyone...I have had a bit of a rough few days, trying to get used to my new ADs and thinking way too much.

Looks like the thread has moved on fast...still haven't really caught up.

Feeling a bit anxious tonight.

Sunflower sorry you're havig a rough night. Want to talk more about it?

Attila I can't explain why really. I was enmeshed but don't think I am now. I just don't feel I can or want to. The thought of it makes me feel.on the verge of a panic attack. And I do love them, even though honestly I don't think they make me happy at all. It's so hard to unpick. It just seems unimaginable, and so horribly sad. Thank you for what you said. I know you're right but it's hard to really believe it and let go of the suffocating guilt.

Lenl thanks for the links I will have a read. Yes you're spot on. Becoming a mum myself and doing lots of reading about parenting and child development has been really a major catalyst for all this and it helps me understand why and how it all happened. I know logically I'm not at fault but I feel I am. I also shrink away from the idea of really truly resting responsibility at her/ their door as I think I feel very responsible for her emotions and experience. How are you coping wih it all?

ChestOfDrawers I know what you mean, I feel responsible too. For both my mum and my sister. And that feeling does the same thing makes me shy away from truly holding my mum accountable. I think I'm moving last blaming myself but instead I think "Oh I'm overthinking it" or similar... though I guess that's another form of self blame really! And mirrors how my mum used to say I was clingy or controlling when I asked her not to drink or whatever i.e basically it's me. It makes sense though if you've spent so long feeling responsible and minimising their negative feelings for them the though of adding to it instead just feels bizarre.

Anyway in terms of coping I feel like when I see them I only just cope. I'm trying to keep the mantra in my head that their pain is not my pain, it's not my responsibility to fix it.
I'm seeing them both for lunch today for my sister's birthday. Guess we'll see how that goes. I feel like they hate me sometimes because I'm not responding how I used to and as I'm the only changing it must be a bit bewildering.

It's harder once you can see it though isn't it? Tiring. I almost wish I was still oblivious at least then I said the right things and although I had a nagging 'off' feeling it was generally ok.

I hope you are ok sunflower?

Back again. It's been a while.

Mum decided to get a key cut and has let herself in to mow the lawn and moan about the general state of my house.

Now as it turns out I've got myself in a position where I have to change work. So I've decided to move 3.5hrs drive away from her to be near friends, and live in a part of the country that will give the kids more to do.

House is going on the market today. I've had one interview down south and I have 2 more next week, plus 1 in London.

Also found a place I want to buy if it's still on when I need to move.

I am once again bloody frightened of her reaction. I know I don't owe her anything but I have to tell her or my life will not be worth living. Dad won't speak to me, and I have no other family apart from the kids. Although Dad enables her it is hard to walk away from him because he's saved my backside with her a few times. How do I get my head round this? I really need to be able to get on with my life not being anxious over her reactions because it's ruining my life.

Hi Pulling

Your dad did not save you this time by telling his wife not to go to your home, cut your grass and having a good nose around into the process. He would rather see you cop it from her again.

I would get your locks changed with immediate effect. Your mother has no idea of boundaries at all and certainly would rail against any being set. What she has done here is all about power and control; your home is her territory as well. I would also consider seeking legal advice because this could be potentially seen as harassment.

Re your comment:--
"I know I don't owe her anything but I have to tell her or my life will not be worth living. Dad won't speak to me, and I have no other family apart from the kids"

Neither are actually good reasons to tell your parents about your impending move. The above is your own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) talking here.

What can she realistically do apart from set her willing enabler of a H onto you (actually he will do you a favour by not talking to you) and or shout at you again (although narcissistic rage is indeed awful to behold). You do not need "family" like this in your life; you'd be better off without them altogether. You do not have to leave a forwarding address.

I would not let your father off the hook entirely either because although he has stepped in a few times to help you (and a non narcissistic parent can help to mitigate a little of the overall damage a narcissistic parent causes) you believe he won't speak to you after this move. He is with her for his own reasons (theirs is a marriage based on an unhealthy codependency) and has put you in her firing line more than once by failing to protect you from her own excesses of behaviours. He has also truly failed you as a parent and such weak men as well need someone like your mother to idolise.

Thank you Atila. I needed the kick up the arse! I'm doing this no matter what. Well tbh the company I work with have just gone pop so I have no choice.

Just arrived at birthday lunch for sister. I'm in the car park but they didn't see me. Watched her and M walk in and am hit by wave of sadness/love/dread... urgh

Lenl bless you. Awful the things we feel isn't it?!

Estate Agent has now been, and the house will be on the market tomorrow. Found a house I like, just need to get offered a job now. Please keep your fingers crossed for me ladies. Mum is the least of my worries right now!

Might be posting a lot soon!

Hi Chest .

Hi Nora. Nice new name How have you coped wih the emotional fallout of changing your relationship wih them? We've had a similar timeline I think!

I'm okay now, im really really okay but up to a few weeks ago I felt all different things, it was pretty confusing, it was on my mind all the time and I was even having nightmares. I felt guilty and mean because I was deliberately and consciously not telling her things but I justified it to myself as doing it to protect those I love (my son and my OH). I felt terrible lying to her that I had appointments to get out of seeing her but I justified it as needing that space to clear my mind and have a break to take things in. I felt uncomfortable googling for ways to cope being with my own mother but comforted by the amount of support there is out there. I think what helped me cope the most was knowing that I wasn't going to do anything drastic, I would just withdraw from the personal stuff, be less available, block or divert any 'bitching' and so if it turns out I'm wrong about her things will still be okay, no damage done (apart from something else to feel guilty about lol ).

But, as it happens I'm not wrong, she is what I thought she was but the weeks spent being emotionally less available have given me strength and I've found that I'm making boundaries without knowing or trying. My M has always bitched to me about my dad, always, ever since I was a child. She does (and did) it without fail the minute his back was turned. At first I was too weak to say anything so I avoided being alone with her, not even for two minutes, this I managed for about six weeks or so. Last week I risked it, my dad left to go and get something from a shop and I stayed with her but as soon as he left she started bitching about nonsense! I found myself just staring at her, I didn't say anything, I didn't respond in any way, I just stared at her forehead until she stopped speaking and then I changed the subject. Emotionally I don't care if that pisses her off, it has annoyed me that she does this to me as an adult and it upsets me to remember she did it to me as a child, I used to comfort her but now I just believe she is being very selfish. I also believe that Attila makes a good point when she says that these people don't seek help for their issues, surely if my M was that unhappy with my dad she'd have sought help from someone other that me over the past 40 + years.

So that's where I'm up to, I'm still trying to make sense of some things but a lot is slotting into place and I get comfort from that. I think I mentioned before that I always 'knew' I wasn't loved, that upset me for many many years because I thought I was broken, that I was feeling things wrong, that I was confused or ungrateful or expected too much but now that I know it was all true it's kind of freeing. It feels like I do know my own mind and can trust my own instincts after all.

I can relate to when you say 'Am I going to be doing this for the rest of my life'. I've had that thought run through my head a few times, only when I'm with her I don't have any fun with her, I can't talk to her and I get nothing out of seeing her but she's not upsetting me either. I'm intending to just plod on and play it by ear.

ChestOfDrawers
When I speak to M I feel so distant and detached and critical. I notice all the shit. I never used to. I used to lap up time with her I thoight we were so close. Am I an awful person? I feel it is my fault because I am the one who has changed.
Wow I could have written this too. I think we were so close. Now I look bad and it was all on her terms. A one way Street.

pulling
Mum decided to get a key cut and has let herself in to mow the lawn and moan about the general state of my house.
It's crazy how excatly like my mother this sounds! I know how you feel putting things off not telling them as we know in the past how they can react. I'm currently not telling my parents sime things at the moment. It's good your making all these changes though. Also good luck for the move and fingers crossed on the job!!

I wrote on her a week or two ago saying things were fairly quiet and both parents seemed good. No arguements but my mums behaviour is sticking out like a sore thumb now. Where as before I wouldn't have noticed. A few comments have upset me. I'm a single parent so I can appreciate a good look man. She keeps harping on about me finding someone. So I text her saying a good looking guy delivered my shopping. She said he was prob thinking how rough you looked and to keep dreaming! Couldn't believe she actually said that. No wonder I have no confidence!

Her and my dad then came round in the evening to see my DS. I confronted her about what she said and she back tracked and said oh I just meant you prob won't get the same driver again. She kept going on about how my DS was "her boy" clearly getting her narc supply from him. I feel she could be quite damaging to him. I think I need to limit contact there.

Sorry about the long post!

Flipping heck. Charmer your Mum!!!

Tbh house goes on market tomorrow. I need to get home. I can't cope with her so close. I never suffered this anxiety when I lived overseas.

Yea I know! Hasn't she just got a way with words! She was at a family party a few weeks ago that I didn't attend. She was ranting on at me about some women saying you think a lot of yourself don't you? Apparently my mum snapped and said yes I bloody well do. I was cringing inside as she was telling me!!

pulling It's obviously what you need. Just to say someone might see your house up for sale and tell her. I live 10 mins from my parents. Guess I've been conditioned not to go too far. Which is ridiculous I know.

Pulling Changing my working hours at work was what finally woke me up to what my M is. I had very little choice in changing, my workplace wanted me in more and I was skint month after month so I was happy to go along with it but she tried every trick in the book to get me to stay as I was. The problem was I couldn't have done anything she suggested even if I wanted to, it certainly made for interesting times. Her suggestions were pretty off the wall (desperate), yet funnily enough none were offers of help from her. It wasn't said outright but it was clear that she wanted me to be available to her, no matter the cost to me.

May I suggest that you tell her that this is what you're going to do because you have no choice, and repeat 'I have no choice' at every moment. It worked for me. Mine couldn't argue or be cross or cry her way round it or anything because I had no choice. I admit she didn't like it, it frustrated her that someone else was 'pulling my strings', she even checked out with someone else that what I was saying was true (about work making everyone change their hours) but she had to concede that it was going to happen. It was the first time that I didn't go into great lengths justifying a decision and engaging in huge conversations about something allowing her the opportunity to be manipulative, but then again, it wasn't my choice. It doesn't sound like it's your choice either.

Hi Everyone, I can identify so strongly with so much of what is being said on here especially these bits;
ChestOfDrawers - When I speak to M I feel so distant and detached and critical. I notice all the shit. I never used to. I used to lap up time with her I thoight we were so close. Am I an awful person? I feel it is my fault because I am the one who has changed.
I notice the manipulation everywhere now!

Nora- it was pretty confusing, it was on my mind all the time and I was even having nightmares. I felt guilty and mean because I was deliberately and consciously not telling her things but I justified it to myself as doing it to protect those I love... But, as it happens I'm not wrong, she is what I thought she was but the weeks spent being emotionally less available have given me strength and I've found that I'm making boundaries without knowing or trying.
I'm looking forward to being able to make boundaries without knowing or trying!! Nora, you have given me hope!

I'm puzzled as to what to do today, should i go and see M? I feel like I ought to but why? I'll not be able to until the weekend if I don't go today... I'm wondering which option is the most 'medium chill'. Going to see them would be normal, but if i go no doubt there will be emotional manipulation to contend with. If I don't go, i'm making a statement that in itself could be narcissistic supply for her....

Also, had a text from narcissistic work colleague/'friend' (aka manipulative bitch) asking me to get her some eggs if I go to shops today. She could quite easily get some eggs herself by walking to the nearby shop (she doesn't drive... because if she learnt to drive she wouldn't be dependent on everybody and they wouldn't feel obliged to help her out all the time). But she wants some particular eggs that they only sell in the supermarket I live near to. She says in her text she is 'desperate for them' ffs.
What do I do? take them next time i see her or make her wait a few days then finally take them, or ignore the request entirely?

Surely eggs are eggs? Tell her you are very busy today and not able to get to the shops.

I find I've started practicing putting boundaries in place with people who I'm less emotionally invested in than M so this could be good practice!

She has already said 'if not today, next time you go'
I wonder if the most medium chill thing is to just get the eggs (I will be going anyway today or tomoz) and make no comment, then I am not feeding her by making an issue out of it in any way...
I know she wants to control me and that is why she's asking...
The only way to win is not to play but at the moment it seems any move I make at all is taken as playing the game. gah!

Maybe i should just get her eggs from the shop where she could get them herself as she is so desperate? she has particularly asked for these posh ones that you can only get in the shop near me.
Jeez, I am tired of playing these games. Stop the merry-go-round I want to get off!

bestfake honestly as Lenl says eggs are eggs. She is just playing games with you. Don't give her an excuse she can manipulate. Just say sorry, you can't get her eggs. No reasons, just a blank statement. And then ignore any further mentions of the eggs, however tempted you are to justify yourself. She'll give up eventually and find a new victim if you refuse to play and make yourself no fun to engage with.

As to your M, do you WANT to see her? If not, don't. It's only a couple of days until the weekend. Again, if you don't engage with any repercussions that result, she will get bored of needling you about it.

Nora so glad you are feeling happier. I like your new name too.

I can so relate to I notice all the shit! Saw my M for the first time in ages last weekend and DH is even noticing it too now. She is so self-delusional it's untrue. Also she moans such a lot, but every helpful suggestion is met with a 'no'. Sometimes she's even formulating the no before you've finished the suggestion... I think she just likes to moan.

Whoever it was saying about people not driving? I've noticed that that's a thing with codependent and narcissistic people. A lot of them choose not to drive to make themselves dependent on others. I don't get it? - but it seems to be a pattern.

SpareBedroom does your M play the "Why don't you yes but" game?
www.ericberne.com/games-people-play/why-dont-you-yes-but/

The lunch meal with M and Dsis was ok yesterday mostly because I only ended up seeing them for a short time. I was surprised it felt ok, apart from one moment, 30 seconds in, where I made a jokey comment about the pub being a bit rough - it is - which M took umbrage too so was silent with pursed lips for several beats. DP thinks she thinks because I've made a better life for myself I've forgotten where I come from and am acting superior. I certainly don't ever feel superior but perhaps if she is a little resentful that I have things she never did she might see it that way?
Anyway, after the lunch I was thinking how it went ok and I didn't feel too stressed. Then I realised why, it was because I:
1)Lent M £50 because as ever she hasn't budgeted and didn't have enough money for the lunch for Dsis (she didn't ask til the morning which makes it harder to say no)
2)Bought a birthday cake as M hasn't
3)Phoned and made a doctor's appointment as M recently had a bad infection that required a hospital trip but she doesn't feel quite right still. She told me this last week but still hadn't made an appt so without thinking I said oh I'll phone now and did it

Then later on after I'd gone home they went to the coast and had dinner out and "lost £££s at bingo"... presumably from the money I lent

So of course it went well, I stayed in role and didn't notice

The doctors appointment is the worst bit. She doesn't need me to do that and surely when I said oh I'll do it a self respecting adult would say no I can do it? I'm not sure she even said thank you so I didn't get the normal strokes out of it. Huh.

Don't beat yourself up about staying in role, this manipulation is so ubiquitous that we are often unaware of it at the time, at least you have recognised it in retrospect so that's a step forward in itself. It's going to take time to overcome a lifetime of programming.
I haven't seen m today so won't do till the weekend at the earliest and will maybe give that a miss if I choose. Praps I will take dh and dc with me so topics will remain neutral.

bestfakesmile

No, do not subject your own family unit to her because she will further use them as narcissistic supply as well. They are not good people to be at all around.

Best to give her a wide berth altogether; it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

You and your own family unit need to come first now and that will happen also by addressing your codependency issues. Your parents trained you well between them, they taught you how to be codependent. They taught you to rescue and or save them and as I often write, you cannot be either in any relationship because neither approach works. You have tried to help people who simply take and do not want to be helped or saved.

Lenl thank you - yes, that wdyyb game is exactly what she does! Having googled it I can now see that I need to stop playing it. She is getting her kicks out of playing it somehow, but at my expense. She likes being the martyr and seeing herself as the 'poor me' person. I suspect it's a role she's played for so long (she's late 70s) that there is very little hope of her relinquishing it. But I CAN stop playing mine.

It's great that you are now recognising the dance you are doing with your M. It took me years to get to that point. You will get there.