"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Juts pondering and these kinds of situations remind me of a dog an old friend of mine had. Every time you visited the dog would bring you a disgusting manky old ball, dripping in dog drool, and put it in your lap. If you touched it at all the dog would respond as it you'd thrown it for her and give it back to you. If you ignored it the dog would pick it up herself and then put it back into your lap again, covering you with more slobber. The only way to get out of it was to leave.
yy to the driving thing. All the rest of the world pays for driving lessons, puts in the effort to learn, passes their test, buys a car, pays for insurance, maintains the car, pays petrol and she just sits on her arse and gets free lifts everywhere by playing the 'oh dear, I can't get there because I don't drive...' card and everyone feels obliged to say they will give her a lift. There is never any offer of money towards petrol or even a pound for the pay and display when you get there! what a cheeky fucker! On top of that she's so lazy she will never walk anywhere.

Ok. Good news. I have a job offer. House is on the market. Now I just need to get the contract for the job offer and get an AIP for a mortgage so I can start offering on property.

My anxiety levels have risen dramatically since last night when I got the offer. Not because of the road ahead but because of that woman

Well I have told my Mum now. More for my benefit than hers and it went as expected. Told her that she cannot emotionally abuse me like she does and that she has made her bed and I left. I feel relieved. I am moving away, which will take me out of her control naturally.

Sigh... it's time for me to join this thread.

I've been trying to convince myself for a while that my M isn't as bad as all that, but I'm now running out of excuses.

This history is no doubt outing, but never mind!

So my parents separated when my brother and I were very young (before school age). My mother went on to have numerous affairs during my childhood/teenage years, breaking up several marriages and ending up having to deal with very pissed off ex-wives and several sets of step children.

The majority of those relationships were abusive and certainly overdramatic.

My grandmother upped and left when my mother was young and (from the limited information I have heard) was both physically and verbally abusive to all her children before she left. I have no doubt that she was a narcissist too.

Anyway, as a result of my M's crazy love life while we were growing up, I feel like I have escaped relatively unscathed. She didn't have the time to really turn her attention onto me.

My brother is the golden child and I am the scapegoat.

During my teenage years I was used as her emotional support through abusive and unstable relationships. I stopped going out drinking as I would often be called at midnight to drive for two hours to collect M from wherever she was spending the weekend as they had fought and he had kicked her out.

The major narcissistic traits seemed to flare when I moved out of home to live with my boyfriend (now husband) and escalated sharply when we got engaged.

The year between engagement and wedding was a total nightmare. We fell out over EVERYTHING, mainly because they were our choices and she didn't get to make the decisions.

She offered to pay us the deposit on the wedding venue if we cancelled it and had it somewhere she preferred (in another country), because she though "we would regret it". My wedding dress made me look like I had massive hips and made me look fat.... you get the picture.

My step father is a complete enabler. He is not abusive to her, but appears to have taken the enabler position in order to make the relationship work (this is the second time round, he left his marriage to be with her initially, then they split up and years later got back together).

We then moved abroad shortly after the wedding, which was a bit of a lifesaver as it limited contact between us.

Everything flared up again when I had our first child. Although settled after we set firm boundaries and cancelled her trips out to see us etc.

We are now back in the same country (but thankfully 2+ hours apart) and we now have three children.

Everything I ever achieve she says is due to her decisions and things she "made me do" as a teenager/young adult.

Every time I'm struggling, she had it worse as a single parent.

She seems to be struggling particularly at the moment as my eldest two children have reached the ages that me and my brother were when she got divorced, and we are still happily married.

My brother has also gotten engaged. Whilst he is still firmly under her control due to her regularly assisting with finances, I think she realises that when he has his own children, then she will find it more difficult to control him/his wife.

We are higher earners, and it seems to frustrate her no end that we do not need her financial support. She uses extravagant gifts to try to by her way with us and with our children.

She now subtly tries to undermine my relationship with my husband whenever he is away for work. Last time he was away, she asked me if I "trusted him when he works away".

She gets worked up if I don't continuously congratulate her on Facebook or in public for being an amazing mother and grandmother. Everything is a competition and she HATES my inlaws for no real reason.

She sees things she has bought for the kids as her property. Suggesting I give my brother (who's wife to be is not pregnant) the cot she bought for my middle child, while I was still pregnant with my third child.

She definitely snoops in our mail when she is here. and comments on my weight etc.

She has now begun to favour my eldest over my middle child (youngest is still a baby). We have had multiple blazing rows where she denies that this is the case.

unfortunately she has been great for about a year, and has had the kids over night a few times to "give us a break" - which really means to try to get the kids to favour them. So they have had more access than I think is healthy in retrospect.

We are now not speaking because I haven't said enough nice things about her on social media. She lashed out and was abusive over text. Then 24 hours later she asked whether she was still having our two elder children for the weekend. When I said that wasn't a good idea, my step father got involved in the text argument.

I have now not heard from either of them for four days. My birthday and my eldest's birthday are coming up in the next few weeks so I'm anticipating contact then.

This is really hard because I know I need to go very low contact or no contact, but it's so much harder to actually do, because when she's good she very very good.... but when she's bad she's horrid!

Sunnie it's so hard. I feel for you. Am sure Attila will be around to give some good advice soon.

Pullingmyhairout, that must have been hard today. At least it is out in the open now and you can get on with planning your new life. Congratulations on the job offer

Sunnie, welcome to the thread. Your m sounds like she uses 'cycles' of abuse to control/confuse you. She behaves badly and you enforce a boundary only for her to behave well again and relax your guard, then she will be back in with snide comments to which you 'over-react' (in her mind) or if you fail in your duty to continually boost her overinflated ego (particularly important for her social media audience) then she will go back into attack mode and the cycle continues.
My m also escalated her manipulation when me and bro left home. Couldn't bear for us to not be close by for narcissistic supply and later also worried that we might 'outshine' her, i'm sure she will feel the way if you and dh both have well paid jobs.
I'm not sure what advice i can offer you, I am still sticking to medium chill to manage my two narcissists (I can't go NC and its even hard to go LC because our lives have been so enmeshed thanks to their manipulation). It is working though I think, m has ceased her dramatic change back behaviours in the last couple of days and other narcissist is pitching in with some gusto but I am still resisting. It isn't easy as I said in previous posts, the only way to win is not to play. Figuring how to not play is the hard bit!

Sunnie

The fundamental nature of your narcissistic parent is the same as it was when you were a child. (If not worse.) Due to no reason other than the fact that you brought a child into the world, your narcissist parent is now a narcissist grandparent. Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists (ACONs) seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances. This is where she has caught you out.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. I have read heart-breaking stories of these kinds of situations often enough that I recognize the clear danger any narcissist grandparent represents. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, college tuition, etc. as bait.

Cutting off from your narcissist parent is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow.

Block her and her enabler of a H on all forms of social media; you must maintain radio silence. Any response from you will give them an "in" so you must not do so.

Narcissists like your mother (and her mother before her) make out for being deplorably bad as grandparent figures and she was not a good parent to you either when growing up. She is already doing the scapegoat/golden child dynamic on your two eldest and you allowing further contact with your mother will destroy their own relationship going forward. These children should no longer see your mother or have any contact with her in any capacity.

You need to be no contact with your mother and your stepfather enabler as of now. The fundamental nature of your malignantly narcissistic parent is the same as it was when you were a child. (If not worse.) Due to no reason other than the fact that you brought a child into the world, your narcissist parent is now a narcissist grandparent. Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists (ACONs) seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From my personal experience, and from observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. I have read heart-breaking stories of these kinds of situations often enough that I recognize the clear danger any narcissist grandparent represents. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, college tuition, etc. as bait.

Just heard from dh that my other narcissist tried to manipulate him into booking a hotel room online for him as she said she didn't know how herself. Complete bullshit as she is always shopping online and is perfectly capable. (Narsissistically enough, she bought an absolutely massive picture frame online the other day and says she was thinking of putting family photos in it but now has decided that she will just have photos of herself ) Fortunately dh told her booking hotel online was perfectly straight forward and he was sure she would manage it fine by herself (proud of him!) also, I bought the eggs but hadn't decided whether to give them to her or not but dh (my saviour ) ate them himself. So, I can say to her I bought them but dh ate them, so can't be accused of not doing as she asked but also she still didn't get the eggs. I have needed his support today as I've felt like I'm close to wobbling out of medium chill, feeling weak...

It was best but it felt good too. Just hope the feeling lasts!

I'd appreciate some thoughts on how to manage a situation.

M was sexually abused as a child and has recently reported it to the police. I have encouraged this over the years, because 1)I think it could be cathartic and 2)because we know that one perpetrator at least has grandchildren.

She's never wanted to however it came up in conversation the other week and she suddenly changed her mind and phoned the police that day. Today she made her formal statement.

My issue is how to manage it. Going grey rock in this area will be hard. It is a difficult and potentially traumatic thing she is undertaking. She says she doesn't care if a conviction is the outcome she just wants the arrest and hopefully the scandal as this person is quite well regarded. But she may find it difficult if cps do decline to prosecute.

She's never fully come to terms with her abuse and it continues to haunt her. She had an 18 month long period of psychotherapy with a specialist almost 20 years ago and that's it. It was useful for her but I suspect more is necessary really. The thing is it's always there and something she periodically brings up and something that has an awful lot of power over her.

Now for the part where I sound like a bitch (perhaps I am). I feel she has almost held onto the abuse over the years as justification for her behaviours, particularly her drug taking and other periods of our lives. I can't complain about my childhood as the unspoken sense is the fact that hers was worse. Her behaviours such as letting my stepdad back into our lives after he for example had a breakdown and came at her with an axe, or smashed the front door in, or looked after me drunk etc are a result of how fucked up she was due to the abuse. The drug taking is due to wanting to block the pain of the abuse. Everything negative is not really her fault because she was abused.

Now I am not seeking to minimise it and I can't imagine how it would feel. It seems many addicts were abused. She had a totally shit time and I really feel bad for her. The (potential bitch alert again) big but for me though is a sense that you can either hold onto a trauma and blame it for everything bad that happens to you or you can try and change your outcomes despite what happens to you. For example with my own childhood (not as bad I know) I am trying to hold the adults accountable for what happened to me but ultimately take responsibility for my own response to those experiences. I'm not sure M has tried to do this.

I've already said something wrong recently when she was talking about how the prospect of making a statement made her feel bad and she was concerned about her "recovery" (from drugs, basically she is worried it makes her feel bad enough she will use heroin again). I sort of feel she is almost getting out in front of it so we're less shocked if she does. I don't know. I have spent many hours of my life talking with her about her struggles with using including her ringing when she is thinking about using again. Anyway I way trying to think of potential positives and I said that "it could be very cathartic and give you a sense of taking control of something you never got to have control over. After all they have impacted your wellbeing your whole life". And they have - it's still something that has the power to derail her. She was put out by what I said, replying "Oh. I thought I'd done well" as in moved on well. So then I felt I had to backtrack yes you've done very well etc.

Anyway sorry I've written a bloody novel but basically I want to be supportive and not kick her while she's down as it were but I don't want to fall into rescuing her or offering counselling. I have previously directed her to local specialist services which she has never phoned as she doesn't "want someone poking round in her head" and "risking" her recovery. She had a positive experience with therapy first time round but now appears to believe no other therapist could be trusted to help.

I have no idea how to be supportive like a normal person and yet maintain boundaries. I don't want to be cold.

God I've read my post back three times and it makes my tummy feel anxious. I feel like I'm being absolutely horrible about her. A logical part of my says I'm not but a big part of my feels like I'm being totally cold and patronising.

Lenl yes I can see that all of that must feel like a nightmare for you. After all, you have been conditioned to feel you are responsible for your M's wellbeing. I think it may be that conditioning that is making you feel guilty.

But are you actually responsible? Perhaps you could think about who IS responsible for your M's wellbeing, for her choices and for the results of those choices. (And that would also include whether you are actually responsible for any backsliding she does as a result of her recent disclosure.)

I also hate to say this, but it is crossing my mind that she's doing this as a way of drawing you back to her, because she senses you're stepping away.

I wonder if the stomach in knots thing is because you are getting a flashback. You are being expected to rescue your M (even if that's just through talking to her) as you would have done in the past and your conditioning is telling you to be supportive while the rational side of you is wanting to step away. There's a great Pete Walker link I've posted before for dealing with flashbacks. www.pete-walker.com/13StepsManageFlashbacks.htm

I meant to say, best of luck, but I couldn't seem to add it after I put in the link.

oh lenl, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this. What happened to your m was truly, truly awful and clearly damaged her. Sadly, she is trying to use you (in the same way as she used drugs) to fix herself, but neither you nor drugs can ever fix her. Nothing you can do can undo the abuse. It is not your fault and not your responsibility. She needs professional help.
You are not a bitch, you are not being horrible, this is not something you can resolve for her. You are just an average person and your mum needs specialist professional support. I think your best route is to continually re-direct her to the professionals. Can you give her as little 'advice' as possible. Tell her, you know that you can't counsel her because you just don't know how. Say you want to protect her and the best way to do that is to not counsel her. Admit you are well out of your depth but still want the best for her.
I think you can still sort of do medium chill in this situation if you do a lot of active listening, where you repeat back what they have said in different words so they feel heard. Acknowledge that what happened to her as a child was terrible. Then avoid advice and emotionally identifying with her- that is natural as you have not had her experiences and so cannot truly identify with her. A broken record technique of continually re-directing her to professional therapy, online help etc (which actually is the only route for her to heal) is the only responsible thing you can do.

This is probably a 'change back' reaction. It is strange that since you have started to feel differently about your relationship she has suddenly decided to contact the police. Remember to look after yourself first.

I don't know if anyone on here has experience with them but I wonder if some of the support organisations for families of addicts (nar-anon, al-anon) might be able to help you lenl? Your mother is inviting you to go in and be responsible for her feelings and actions - again.
I'm remembering reading Pamela Stephenson's biography of Billy Connolly and how she read up about alcoholism and basically said to him, I'm leaving and I'll be back if you stop drinking. You know, the idea that any compromise ends up being enabling. I don't think you're a bitch at all for thinking what you are thinking. I think your ideas on this are entirely healthy.

Hi Leni. I have had a very difficult path. Sexual abuse, drugs, etc. I'm a parent now. I take that responsibility very seriously and never ever want my children to suffer because of my own issues. That's my stuff
, not their stuff. I work really hard on my issues all the time. And if I get it wrong I talk to my children and apologise. It can be hard but that's when you pause and notice and seek help. I have been in therapy for years and have loads of different ways to help myself. My point is that being a sexual abuse survivor is not an excuse for not taking responsibility for yourself especially if you have children. I know you know that but I thought it might be helpful to hear that from someone who has been sexually abused.

I think you can stay medium chill. You can be sympathetic without taking responsibility for her or being sucked back into the game.

For example. Oh that sounds really hard. It sounds like you could do with going for a walk. I am thinking about you but I can't talk right now. I've got to go now, why don't you do some journalling (or just don't suggest things, it's not your responsibility what she does). Maybe you need to see your GP. Maybe you need to seek therapy. Etc etc.

Constantly signpost to other sources of support so she doesn't rely on you. It's up to her to seek them, not your problem if she doesn't. She is an adult who is fully responsible for her decisions. All you can do is be responsible for yourself and keep those boundaries.

Maybe you could think about defining what you want the relationship wih her to be - frequency,what you talk about,and so on. That might give you a clearer goal so that you don't end up modelling yourself on an unpaid therapist and support worker.

I feel anxious posting this and i hope I haven't been too blunt or bossy.

Oh and the guilt - you haven't said anything bad :)

Hi all. Thanks for the responses to my last post it meant a lot.

Spoke to M recently. Can I share one thing. It's so trivial but it's really pissed me off. Will change the details for anonymity.

Me - I bought stuff for a new sport recently it's really cool.
M - oh that sounds nice.
Me - yes it's really fun we all love it blah blah.
M - yes and I bet your dh will be really good at that.

Background is I am highly trained and talented in 'sports'. I had to stop due to injury. My sibling then usurped me when they subsequently decided to have a career in sports. Now no one gives a shit about my sports ability. To the extent that I get into a new thing but the response that dh will be good at it. Erm what? I will be good at it. ME!

I often feel my opinions, abilities/ talents/ interests, and career are completely uninteresting to them.

Is it a gender thing? Is it because I am a mum? (I even get called 'little mother'). Is it just because I'm worth less in the family and my role is to prop all of them up? Is it to put me down? Is it actually nothing and I'm reading too much into it?

Am I over reacting?

chestofdrawers, sorry for what you've been through. it sounds like you have dealt with it responsibly though and your kids will benefit from that just as much as you will yourself.
As far as getting it wrong as a parent is concerned, we will all make mistakes, even the most well adjusted person makes mistakes let alone those of us maladjusted backgrounds. But we are choosing, consciously, to take responsibility for our own stuff and not pass it down the generations. When we fuck it up, we discuss it with our children/whoever, make amends and move on, wiser than we were before. Our children learn that perfection is not realistic and they learn how to behave when they themselves fall short of the standards they set themselves.
Most of the issues we ourselves are now dealing with come from our parents desperate attempts to proclaim themselves perfect. Their mistakes were compounded by their failure to face them and pass them off as their children's failings.
Chest, regarding the sports issue, you are not being sensitive, she is trying to undermine you just in a sneaky way that makes you question your intuition. Even the most 'innocuous' comments are barbed with an agenda.
I saw my m today. She completely ignored me, I chatted to dad for 5 mins. Felt like saying 'Do you see this face? Not bovvered'.
Instead smiled sweetly to dad and made a gracious exit.

chest

re your comments in quote marks:-

"I often feel my opinions, abilities/ talents/ interests, and career are completely uninteresting to them".

They only want to bask in your reflected glory if you achieve in this sport; if you do not then they are not interested.

"Is it a gender thing?"
No. its a typical narcissistic behaviour from your family of origin to you as their scapegoat in said family of origin

"Is it because I am a mum? (I even get called 'little mother')"
No. But do not put up with being called little mother either, that is demeaning you.

"Is it just because I'm worth less in the family and my role is to prop all of them up?"
Yes, your assigned role here is the scapegoat for all their inherent ills.

"Is it to put me down?"
Yes

"Is it actually nothing and I'm reading too much into it?"
No and no

"Am I over reacting?"
No

It is NOT possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. I would further now lower all forms of contact to a point where zero is in sight.

Chest I can only speak from personal experience, but I don't think narcissistic mothers see the real you. What my M sees is a combination of a) the daughter she thinks she 'made' i.e the parts of the 18-year old me who pretty much did what she'd conditioned me to do, b) someone to reflect back at her the qualities she thinks she has (or ought to have) by admiring her/sympathising with her/agreeing with her shit distorted opinions and c) some sort of perfect married daughter figure with perfect children that she can boast about to her friends.

If I say, do or mention anything that falls outside this remit, it gets either blanked, or reframed to fit the ideal model. It sounds to me as though that's what your M is doing too. That's because it's not about you, it's about her.

It sucks.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to read my post and replying. All really helpful and I really appreciate it. I never even considered she could have changed her mind as a response to my attitude changing. The ideas for dealing with it are really useful. Thanks again.

And thanks Chest for sharing your experience. I've starting to believe (on and off) that her experiences, as fucking tragic and horrible as they are, are not for me to resolve. I'm sorry about how your M is about your skills/talents. It's belittling and I think her ultimate goal (conscious or not, who knows) is essentially to keep you down. To recognise your individuality and talents would be to recognise the ways you have surpassed her/have done well and I think some Ms just cannot deal with that. Slightly different but my M will say "Oh I've never had a relationship as nice as yours. At least I've done something right that you have this. I've showed you what not to do blah blah"... it's all either minimising the good in our lives or saying they are the reason.

SpareBedroom your description of what your M sees of you rings very true for my M too. I read it out to DP who laughed and said it described things perfectly. I find some comfort in finding out I'm part of a script/pattern. Feels easier to overcome somehow!

Also M messaged me after she gave her statement just saying "all done xx" - normally I'd have asked how she was if it was ok etc but I just replied "well done" and haven't heard anything else so far this weekend.

Feels a bit strange but also good