"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Not sure whether I should post here, but I am on my way to see my parents for over two weeks (they live in another country where I am from) and I feel anxious. Most of my life I have been trying to fulfil their expectations of me and not really thought about who I am. However in the last year I have left my fairly long marriage and met another man (not to my parents' taste, due to him being a little "alternative"). They have accepted this, but I have also acquired a couple of small tattoos on my arm, which will be hard to disguise for that length of time. I will try to, so I can avoid the guilt tripping and tantrums from them. I have been an adult for a long time, but I still don't feel free to just be myself. The situation is further complicated by the fact that I have had to borrow money from them, due to the split, and will have to continue to do so until I find a job (just finished latest postgrad studies last month). I wish I didn't have to rely on them so am now frantically job hunting. But first I have to find my watch with wide strap to conceal my tattoos at least partly.

I feel like my parents' control of me has kept me from ever properly growing up. I know I have my own part to play, but they set it up from when I was very young. I can never remember a time I wasn't depressed.

Toys

Absolutely you should post here. You are in the right place.

You may want to read "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth. Controlling behaviours are abusive in nature and are about power as well as control.

Presumably your own FOG here has played a part in you actually visiting them now. Are you staying with these people; if so do not do that to yourself and make an excuse not to stay so long with them. Being in their home will simply enable them to up the power and control against you.

Pay them back in full when you start working; they will use those funds against you and as a further means of controlling you and or obligating you to them. Never borrow money from them ever again.

This link as well may also help you as well as the links at the beginning of this thread:-

www.controllingparents.com/Signs.htm

Makealist

Re your comment:-

"Question . I'm pondering on whether to send NM a birthday card in a couple of months. It would really be a red line if I didn't. Was only going to say something like - ' All happy. I hope you have a happy birthday as well. Enjoy the day. Make'. No kisses , no love you lots".

No contact is precisely that so no would be my answer to your above question. To such disordered of thinking people like your mother, a response from you is the reward. Sending this will open up a box that you have spent a long time trying to nail down shut. Do not do that to yourself, doing so will bring you another level of pain.

It is also not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

Hi Toys I don't have the answers unfortunately, but I didn't want to read and run.

I completely understand the feeling of not being free to be yourself, despite long being an adult . Dsis once said she's always felt that wherever she is, it's as if she has our M sitting on her shoulder, watching and judging everything she says or does. I can well imagine how you must be feeling about the tattoos....

The only answer for me was to go no contact with my M - I tried 'low contact' and putting some boundaries in place (not wanting her to let herself into my house without knocking first, for example), but it was if she knew what I was doing before I even had a chance to tell her and we had a huge argument where it all came out and it was so bad that there really is no going back for me now - a blessing in disguise I think . But obviously, that may not be the answer for you - or maybe not atm anyway.

Are you actually staying with your parents for the two weeks or just near to them? Will you be able to have a break from them at all?

"I dipped back in to the community here because DD is having a big birthday and would like a family party with mother there too".

Regardless of her age telling her age appropriate truth is important here. She may well want this because she wants to see her nan and you be "friends" again; due to her age too she may well not realise the whole toxic dynamic behind her nan.

You are the parent here. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your child, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt. Kids tend to accept what is.

Do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family.

Thank you. I have to stay with them this time, as I have no money for a hotel. They have funded my trip. My son will be there too, as I've sent him as soon as schools finished here a few days ago. They are great grandparents who love him and are able to care for him for most of the summer and do things with him I don't have the time or funds for.

What I now crave, more than anything, is not to feel like I owe P anything, but the fact is that as exDH and I have been very busy and will continue to be (when I find a job), they are the only affordable holiday care option (DH has a start up and I've been studying). Plus DS loves going there.

Found my wide strap watch. Also changed my nose ring into a non-visible retainer, as when M saw it half a year ago when I forgot to briefly hide it, she started crying and was ridiculously upset. As if I had ruined my life. It was a barely noticeable, small ring

X-posted with Attila

I was also thinking that borrowing the money is not good for you in your situation but wasn't sure how to put it. I have had my fingers burnt on this subject - years ago (20+) my M gave me some money to pay off a loan my ex had taken out in joint names. I had no way of paying it off - my M insisted on paying it for me. She made it clear that it wasn't a loan and that she wanted to pay it to help me.

Now 20 years later she has apparently been telling other people that I owe her money . I don't know why I was surprised or upset to hear that - she's only doing what she's done her whole life - ie tell lies to justify her abusive behaviour and make her innocent victims look bad.

I will have a good excuse to hole up in the self-contained flat they have downstairs, as need to do corrections to my dissertation. Otherwise, no real way of getting away.

Yes. I utterly loathe owing them money, so am submitting job application left right and centre at the moment.

Name change fail... Haha... It's Toys here.

Thanks for the book recommendations. I will look into them when I get a moment.

yes

re your comment:-
"They are great grandparents who love him and are able to care for him for most of the summer and do things with him I don't have the time or funds for"

They do not love him; they see him as useful for their own purposes which is to further control you this time via him. Many adult children of such toxic people hope that this time around with their own child their parents will behave better despite their own experiences to the contrary. It does not happen. Your son is too young to realise that he is being manipulated by his grandparents as well.

They were not good parents to you and now they are becoming crap examples of grandparents to your son. They will try and buy his affections and in the process try and isolate him further away from you as his mother.

Is your son with you now?.

I would now cancel the visit citing illness or some other excuse and not see them at all. Funding your trip as they have done further obligates you to them, that was not done altruistically at all.

You will simply be further denigrated in their presence and your son will see that from them too. You cannot protect him from their abuses of you. They gave you crap over a barely noticeable nose ring for goodness sake. Your mother's waterworks were pure and simple manipulation.

They are great grandparents who love him and are able to care for him for most of the summer and do things with him I don't have the time or funds for

That doesn't sit well with me but I realise I could well be projecting here. And I know that childcare is expensive. Do you trust your parents to treat your DC better than they treated you? I always worried about that one with my M - she looked as if she loved them but it didn't make sense that she suddenly found the ability to show love to her GC when she never managed to do so with her own children! She was very loving to them when they were small, but as soon as they started having opinions of their own it became difficult to say the least.

yes

If your son is there now get him and you well away from them asap. Cut short your visit to these people and certainly do not stay there for the duration. They will use him and you to further control and manipulate.

Sorry x-posted again!

Attila puts it much more eloquently than I can.

This was a big issue for me to get my head around though so I can understand why you want to see some good in your son's relationship with your parents. When my eldest was born my M was absolutely smitten with him. And I lapped it up. It was as if finally I was seeing some sign that she loved me - because he was my son, so it must have meant she loved me too, right?

The penny only started to drop when my DC got older and would start to disagree with her, or show some disinterest to her - or even worse, poke fun at her (very mildy, I have to say). Suddenly she would turn on them and it was as if I was watching a rerun of the ways she treated me. Not nice.

Thank you again.. Was just walking to the station, so could not reply earlier.

I understand what is being said. I feel like the situation will be fine until DS gets in his preteens or teens, and will not be so "nice" any more. My F used to be very explosive. I had to constantly walk on eggshells. My M is the crying guilt tripping kind who thinks they know what's best for you. She finds it hard to see me as a person with my own wants likes and needs.

I will have to suck it up this time, as I need the last of my loan from them to buy a used car, so I can see DS (who mainly lives with exDH in our old flat) more often (would like to be closer to 50/50) get a job that does not involve changing buses/trains, as I'm not in great health.

Meant to add that F has mellowed a lot since retiring, but I still don't feel completely comfortable with him. As he can have his moments :(

The weird thing is that I do think they love me, they are caring in general, but they also think they know what's best for me and how I should be.

And I do end up thinking, was it that bad? I could make very few decisions for myself, so have ended up not knowing how to live without a constant anxiety and depression. And a near life long eating disorder (had all the ones you can think of).

Firstly id just like to say nobull im so sorry what you've been through. You sound like an amazing and strong person and im sure you can show your children how a mother should be.

I post now and then on here and just need a bit of hand holding really. I'm feeling quite weepy and sad.

This is a thread i posted a few days ago regarding a big argument i had with my parents www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2968610-aibu-always-feel-like-the-scapegoat?

My dad rang on sunday and said lets not argue. He is always the reasonable one and tbh most of the doing is my mum.

Anyway me and my childs father have recently been getting on very well and agreed to trying and take things slowly and give things another go. My parents never liked him from the beginning so the poor guy never stood a chance. (My parents has never liked many of my boyfriends). He instantly knew what they were like but i chose not to listen to him and to them instead. Only through counselling since we split have i realised what narc qualities my mum has and how controlling she is.

He invited me to go on holiday with him and his family. He was taking our son and he knew how much id miss him so asked if i wanted to come too. I said id love to. All his family have been lovely about it and even though his sisters were weary, have still been very nice. Made me see even more how different our families are!

Now after the argument i posted above things are still rocky. I think they only started talking to me again to see their grandchild as they adore him. I'm so worried about telling them im going on holiday with my sons dad and family. I know I will get it in the neck and they will try and convince me not to go. I'm also worried that they will just stop talking to me. My mum has been known not to speak to her own family members for years over since trivial things. How do i go about telling them??

I feel ready to start reading some books about toxic parents too. Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks

Yesyesyeswhatever,

And yes it was that bad and still is. Now they are dragging your son into their dysfunction as well and will treat him ultimately in not too dissimilar ways as to how you've been treated. When he has opinions of his own they will not like it at all, they will also use him to get back at you as well.

Your parents have not fundamentally altered; old age has simply caught up with your dad but he is still the same person he ever was. Neither of them have apologised nor have accepted any responsibility for their actions. Their control over you has contributed hugely into having your own childhood and adult life the ways it is now. They failed you utterly and still do so because of their desire to control you. Their actions are not loving ones; neither of them know what love is and they certainly never showed you love either.

Yes. It's just very hard to find perspective. I feel like I don't know what to think. All I know is that an adult shouldn't be feeling nervous or defensive meeting their parents. So, as soon as I am on my own feet, will start paying them back and insist on having more control and respect. The saving grace is that they are in another country.

Hi chocolateandbiscuits

re your comment:-

"Now after the argument i posted above things are still rocky. I think they only started talking to me again to see their grandchild as they adore him. I'm so worried about telling them im going on holiday with my sons dad and family. I know I will get it in the neck and they will try and convince me not to go. I'm also worried that they will just stop talking to me. My mum has been known not to speak to her own family members for years over since trivial things. How do i go about telling them?? "

They were and remain toxic parents to you and they will treat your son in not too dissimilar ways as to how you've been treated as well. I would keep your child well away from your parents. If the other set of grandparents are nice then concentrate on them instead.

If they did stop talking to you would that really be a bad thing given their own abuse of you?. No it would not. Your mother is a narcissist and your dad is her willing enabler and hatchet man. I would not let him off the hook here at all because he has been complicit here and has failed to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviours. He has offered you and your siblings up to be abused at her hand
Do not tell them; you are an adult and are not at their beck and call. Do not give them that power.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

I would read Toxic Parents as a starting point along with the resources at the start of this thread. Do read the "daughters of narcissistic mothers" website as well

Yes

re your comments in quote marks:-

"So, as soon as I am on my own feet, will start paying them back""

Indeed and you need to pay them back asap. They will hold that over you like the Sword of Damocles otherwise.

"and insist on having more control and respect".

But they will never give you that. They are not and will not be the parents you want them to be because they are not built that way. Its NOT your fault they are like this; their own families of origin did that to them. What if anything do you know about their own family of origin; that often gives clues.

You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship and parents you should have had rather than the ones you actually got.

"The saving grace is that they are in another country"

Indeed but you now need to put proper mental distance and boundaries between you and them also.

Yes you are absolutely right - you shouldn't feel nervous or anxious about seeing your parents and the fact that you do is your insincts screaming out to protect you from any more onslaughts.

For me, the point where I went from realising what my M was doing to me, to putting boundaries/barriers up to try and limit any more of it coming my way, was when she ramped it up to new heights. You would think any normal person would notice their daughter cooling it with them and keeping a bit of a distance and would think/say 'I wonder what the problem is or if I have done something, and what can I do to improve things with her', wouldn't you? Well, my M's response was to break my front door trying to get in (I had left the key in the lock to attempt to have some semblance of privacy in my own home). She then tried to cause trouble in my marriage, upset my DC and then accused me of breaking into her house .

That was my punishment for attempting to put our 'relationship' on a more 'normal' footing and we are now NC as a result. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it's not always possible to make an abusive person treat you with respect, and to stop trying to control you. It may just push them to show just how horrible they can be - so be prepared.

Attila I think i have come to realise their ways will not change. I have already seen some things with my mum being around my son that i do not like eg. he will like the music i like, he will wear this and that.

It would probably be good to have less contact. It just makes me incredibly weepy knowing that i will have less contact with the people who should be the closest to me. I dont have many friends and i have depended on them alot in the past. Its only now im trying to break away. I think my mum likes me being dependant on her and dislikes the fact im now getting my own voice and opinions.

Yes true. He often says "you know what your mum is like". So he knows full well her behaviours.

Chocolatte I've read your other thread. It's all about them being in control and having you dangling isn't it? I know it's scary, and upsetting to think about letting go of the relationship you have with your parents, even when it's a shitty one - because they're the only parents you have. But you have your son, and he is your family now, not them. And you have the choice to give him what you never had - a safe and secure childhood where he feels loved and allowed to be himself. And I suspect that you know, deep down, that your parents will only try and hamper that.