"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

But that's just the NPD way of thinking. Other people are never supposed to change, because to their way of thinking we're not real people, we're just actors in the show of their lives.

Has anyone else repeated the cycle of abusive relationships after having been raised by a narc/borderline mother?
And if so how did you stop it?
I've went from one controlling relationship to the other. Ending with a physical, mental and sexually abusive relationship with a malignant narc who tried to destroy me. Really don't fancy going through that ever again.

The 'tag questions' thing is interesting - I hadn't heard of that before. it reminds me of something my narc M always used to do, although it might be completely different.

I would tell her something good/nice that had happened, any random thing from 'I just bought some lovely shoes' to 'we're going on holiday' and her standard response would be 'yes, that should cheer you up'. That would always piss me off because, generally I'm quite a happy person, definitely not depressed (apart from when my M was around that is). But the implication was that I was unhappy anyway. So anyway I would always respond with 'what do you mean? I don't need cheering up, I'm v happy thank!' etc... which would lead to much eye-rolling and muttering about how it's 'alright for some..'.

Don't know why I bothered responding at all, looking back, for all the difference it made

Codeee You do not have to repeat the cycle. My DH and my now deceased Pils were the saving of me, shown me how normal families behave. My mother loathes DH, about 6 months into the relationship she told a friend, with me present that the relationship would soon be over,
"It's not as though she's going to marry him" ie she would do all in her power to prevent it. Didn't succeed, 36 years later and we are still together (married 31).

Flump I think you mother must be in league with mine, Her pet put downs are : "alright for some"
along with "how the other half live" and "Just what everyone needs"

Codeeee had abusive relationships all through teens and twenties. Not sure if any of them were narcs, nothing in comparison to my m anyway, just arseholes. Some were emotionally abusive, some physically. I just accepted that that is what I deserved. I got to a point where I had had enough and was just going to stay single. Then I met my DH, it took me several years to completely trust him.
My advice would be to stay single for a while and work on healing yourself. If you do meet someone new then take it slowly. My mistake, probably out of desperation to be loved, was to get involved too quickly. This would scare normal men off and attract the ones who were in it for what they could get.

Flump perhaps she is projecting and just saying that what you describe would cheer HER up. Probably she can't empathise enough to put herself in your shoes and just share your enjoyment.

I've only recently realised that my M's narrative telling me I'm unsympathetic is actually her projecting on to me the fact that despite the outward behaviour she puts on, at root she's trying to hide the fact that SHE is unsympathetic.

God it's crap having to wade through all this stuff from them.

Codeee sorry for the hard time you've had. I think a good place to start is the reading list at the start of the thread. 'Toxic Parents' is the one most of us read first, I think. And keep reading/posting here because it's really helpful.

Codeeee I've had one, a long time ago now - he was eventually diagnosed with BPD. Funnily enough I would have left him much sooner than I did if my M hadn't taken his side and told me I was 'breaking his heart' by wanting to leave him.

My childhood definitely screwed up my idea of what 'acceptable' behaviour was in a relationship. Anybody can end up in an abusive relationship, but with a narc parent you may not have enough sense of self respect and boundaries to know when to walk away - I certainly didn't.

Eventually I just vowed to stay single for a long time (as in years). In that time I probably still didn't have a clue what a 'normal' relationship looked like, but I did learn to stand on my own two feet. look after myself, and not 'need' another person. In concentrated on my job/training and building some good friendships and 'filled' my life that way. When I did then meet my DH I was comfortable enough as a single person and not in any hurry to dive in head first. That also meant I wasn't worried about the fact that he wanted to take it slowly (whereas in the past I may have seen that as a negative, rather than the positive that it is).

And yes Spare I think there's always been a lot of projecting going on with my M. That and wanting to keep me down, ie tell me that I'm not happy, even when I clearly am .

Don't know if you remember my M accusing me of being a 'thief' (ie borrowing some family photo albums - and telling her before and after that I was doing so?). I was so shocked at the time that she would use that word with me. Then literally a few days ago I had one of my 'flashbacks' that seem to keep happening. I remembered standing outside my granddad's home with my mum & sister, and my mum getting really upset and crying. My granddad had lost some money and had basically accused my mum of taking it. She protested her innocence but he was just saying that she should have known that if she was short of money she only had to ask. I remember my mum crying all the way home and telling my sis & I that we must never tell our dad what our granddad (her dad) had said because our dad would go nuts.

I've no idea if she really took the money or not; I would guess not. But could it be that over the years she has kept the 'thief' accusation in her mind and is projecting it onto me? For her to call me that for such a ridiculous thing just makes no sense.

Sorry for the brain-dumping, just that thinking about my granddad has got me wondering where/who my M got her Narc behaviour from. I didn't know my GM because she died young, and funnily enough I remember my granddad as being lovely - always v kind and funny to me & my sister. But my M's life revolved around looking after him (although he was perfectly fit and healthy up until his death) - she would see him all the time; if he wasn't at ours we were at his. My dad lead quite a solitary life and was at home on his own most weekends, because my M always put seeing our granddad first.

So I wonder now if my granddad 'controlled' my M and enmeshed himself in her life, the way she does with my sister, and has tried to do with me. Or I've even wondered if my M had just decided that she was going to 'take care' of my granddad after he was widowed relatively young, and that she therefore thinks that me/my sister should have done the same with her too.

Flump yes that was me who 'didn't have the self-respect and boundaries to walk away'. I had one bf who definitely had issues (v jealous/possessive); the rest were just ordinary arseholes; but it was only after I finally saw the light and dumped one of them (up until then I'd always been the dumpee) that I got some self respect. The next bf after that eventually became my DH.

So Codeeee I totally agree with everyone else that working on yourself is a priority.

Flump that's really interesting about where your M's behaviour comes from. With mine I think it's a combination of her own DF being quite a hypochondriac (or so I've been told by my aunt) and her brother and sister being born 8/10 years after her. So possibly the dual expectations of caring for her dad and for her younger brother and sister led her to become massively codependent, and then she married my F with his depression/anxiety/tranquilliser addiction, the codependency was reinforced and so the whole pattern repeated itself.

It's only since my F died that the narcissistic aspect of her codependency has become more obvious. Either that's because she's got older or there's some other weird thing where the codependency turns in on itself somehow, IDK.

It's sad when you look at it like that. But the only way forward is to break the cycle.

I agreed to meet up with my mum briefly last week to talk about what happened with DS when she was looking after him and hit him. She started down the poor me/victim path and I said I'm not interested in that stuff I need a proper chat. She then pulled out a card from her wallet saying I've got asperger's syndrome be tolerant etc. And I am just so confused because even though I believe her diagnosis to be right (what do I know) I feel she is manipulative to the extreme and that is the thing that people with autism are supposed to not have. Obviously everyone is different but I feel like I don't know what I'm dealing with. Am I in the wrong to have ever trusted her with DS? Can you be narcissistic and autistic?

Frami thank you that gives me hope, my mother destroyed the one normal relationship I had. This is before I knew she had a pd. I'm so glad that you found a dh with a normal family that's my dream ha!

sleepyhay yeah that's been me from early teens to 30. It's got worse the older I've got. My first bf repeatedly cheated on my so my trust has been screwed since then.
I'm currently trying to fix me so not even thinking about a relationship just now, therapist has banned it just now aswell, I think I've been looking for a love that I never got growing up, so have ended up in abusive relationships that have initially pretended to be just that.

sparebedroom thank you I'll check that one out, I've read why am I not good enough and the checklist is my mother to a tee. My therapist told me to get boundraies by Charles L Whitfield because I have none, so currently reading that aswell

badtasteflump ha that sounds like my nm with my dd1s dad she constantly took his side over mine, and constantly told me he wasn't that bad. Questioned how he was after it ended and still takes his side to this day regarding dd

That's me, I've no self respect or boundraies I'll try to work things out and make excuses for them rather than walk away for far longer than I should. I really don't have any idea of what a normal relationship is.

Thank you, that's currently what I'm trying to do just concentrating on the dds, work and uni, I've said I'm not even gonna look until I'm sorted and my life is full.

Oh and I agree that your mum might have got her behavior from your grandad, as I'm sure my mother got it from her mother who got it from her dad.

It's one of the reasons I went to therapy as having two dds the cycle needs to end here.

mylittlesunshine personally I'll write it down and try finding why it's come up and process what I'm feeling at the time and why it's came up when it did. I'm a chronic overthinker though

Scooby have you ever seen the character Sheldon Cooper on The Big Bang Theory? Obviously he's fictional, but I can't make up my mind whether he has ASD or some sort of narcissism. So yes, I think there are similarities. Also I've worked with children with ASD and what I've noticed is that how their difficulty with understanding/processing others' emotions manifests is often down to their upbringing - i.e. how emotionally literate their parents are. So I can see how a child with ASD and terrible parenting could become apparently narcissistic.

But... there is a massive BUT here - if someone is crossing your boundaries, upsetting you, manipulating you, it doesn't matter what label they have. You duty is still to look after yourself and your children. So it shouldn't matter what your M calls herself - if she is abusing you, call her out on it and get out of there.

sorry that last was for Scabby not Scooby.

sparebedroom thank you. Yes, I know Sheldon and funnily enough he's one of my favourite tv characters. He is hilarious.
It's hard to know and I am probably over intellectualising about it to avoid the feelings about it. She will never understand my point of view and it doesn't actually matter what label you put on it she is harmful to me and my ds. She even said last time I saw her that I was a very naughty child and her friends all told her she should give me a slap more often.

Hi Scabby

This is what I wrote to you on a previous thread re your mother. I remember you writing that your son called you and your brother after she had hit him:-

"What you want from your mother and what you get even now are two very different things. She was that bad to you as a kid as well wasn't she.

No-one protected you from her ill treatment of you as a child and I am so sorry that happened to you. It was not your fault in any way, the fault is all hers.

I would argue that she has not fundamentally altered since your childhood, she has just given you the impression that she has changed. You have also wanted her to change and gave her the benefit of the doubt. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the person to changing circumstances. That is where you yourself fell down here.

Protect your son now in the ways that you were not sadly protected; she does not get to have a second chance with your son now. You would not have tolerated this from a friend, your mother is no different".

Your mother is still playing the victim here and has again not apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for her actions. Her AS also does not give her carte blanche to behave as she has done, its no excuse or justification for her actions. She also cites "friends" telling her that you should have been slapped more often!. I doubt very much if a person like your mother has friends to be honest as she is that disordered of thinking.

She is abusive and toxic and has been so throughout her life. She was not a good parent to you and is an abusive example of a grandmother figure to your DS. You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, your mother is no different.

Do keep both yourself and your son well away from your mother from now on. There is no law to say you have to spend any time at all with toxic relations.

Hello all

I wanted to say thank you for this community. I've been NC with my mother for the last 4 years after having read Stately Homes threads obsessively for several months before a final trigger and making the break. While other factors have made it an incredibly stressful period (think new area, new job, combatitive divorce, near homelessness), I'm so aware that I didn't have all that, and putting up with mother making it about her, and wanting support. And that, on my own, with my own head and own thoughts and now stability, and not giving energy to her, I can be an ok mum and enjoy peace and quiet.

I dipped back in to the community here because DD is having a big birthday and would like a family party with mother there too. And reading the thread I'm reminded why I don't want her in my house when she tramples so much over my reality and feelings, and risks overturning the whole fragile structure. I still find it incredibly hard that others, outside this thread, don't understand what its like for us. I want to be like other families. But it matters so much that there are others here who get that in an imperfect world we are doing our best, and that our view of our reality matters.

I just wanted to say to those who are struggling with NC, it does work and it gets far far easier. Once I'd started, over time I found I had so much more energy for my agenda, to live my life without someone back seat driving and needing to be taken into account. Good luck.

Hi red - I have been NC with my narc M since Easter, and even at this early stage, I am finding the positives far, far outweigh the stress it has caused

Re your DD's party - is your DD aware of the issues with your M? Would she be old enough to understand? I would be worried that your M could see the invite as you holding out the olive branch, so to speak.

If your DD really wants your M there, is there the option of holding the party in a neutral venue, ie a hired hall or pub? I can't imagine how hard it would be to be made to invite my M into my home, even after this long, let alone 4 years. At least in a different venue it would be easier for you to just ignore her and let her do her own thing.

Hi. I also wanted to say how much more energy I have since going NC with my mother - and correspondingly at least a couple of my siblings. Considering that they ignored me anyway, no change there then ! Since I said I was going to therapy, my NM is now 'officially' ignoring me . I presume. No idea really, and don't care.

I think the lightening of the load for me is that I don't always have that FOG stuff going on in the background. Should I ring, should I visit etc [ always one way] . So yay to NC !!

Question . I'm pondering on whether to send NM a birthday card in a couple of months. It would really be a red line if I didn't. Was only going to say something like - ' All happy. I hope you have a happy birthday as well. Enjoy the day. Make'. No kisses , no love you lots .

I like to think of myself as honest, not a liar. To say i love her would be a lie.
Good quote for me - ' The opposite of love isn't hate - it's indifference'
And it is.

I'm pondering on whether to send NM a birthday card in a couple of months. It would really be a red line if I didn't

Make I've been wondering about exactly the same thing (and in the same timescale...). My thinking atm is that NC means NC - and in my mind, it's permanent. Sending a card could/would (I think) be taken as a sign that I am 'sorry' ( I'm not and have no reason to be) or at least that I want some kind of contact to start again (I don't). It would also be impossible to get it 'right' in her eyes. The kind of card you suggest would go down badly and be shown to the world as proof of how uncaring I am. And the fact that there would be no accompanying gift would give her the rage. So I think I will probably not send anything. NC is NC.

I remember standing in a card shop with a friend just before Mother's Day this year. I read through every single card and didn't want to buy any of them - they all had messages that I didn't mean. It made me feel ridiculously angry that my M could read them and think she was worthy of that kind of sentiment from me - and it also made me really sad. I should have realised this was all brewing then!