"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Chocolate

I would certainly lower all contact with your parents further; they are not going to change and you can only change how you react to them.

There is no probably about it, it will be good indeed for you to have less contact with them. Your mother is also starting (not surprisingly)on your son and she will treat him not too dissimilarly as to how you've been treated as well. Narcissists do tend to either over value or under value the relationship with their grandchild (who are seen as narcissistic supply). She's already started on him re music and fashion tastes, it has to stop now and you have to protect him from such malign influences. She certainly dislikes the fact that you're trying to find your own voice and opinions; she sees that as a threat and uses her willing enabler of a H against you as well. He being a weak bystander of a man also needs someone like your mother to idolise and I daresay their marriage is based on an unhealthy codependency. He's a textbook willing enabler; he has used the same types of line that such men say i.e. "you know what she is like" etc. His need to feel that he had chosen a good wife was more important than protecting his children.

A man who stands up to his wife will not be tolerated for long, or will not find his life tolerable for long, and will either leave or be kicked out. Narcissists simply don’t have healthy and functioning relationships, and so there is either no relationship, or a dysfunctional and enabling one.

Need support, rally can't cope anymore, kicked off with my Mother again re my father. Got a call from an Uncle (whom I'm starting to think is a bit of a stirrer) telling me DF was fading fast (remember this was DMs claim in 2115) and I was to ring DM as she had been trying to get me to no avail. We have an answer phone, there are no messages on it or on mobile. Neither DH, DC at home or other 3 have been contacted. Rang my sister who confirmed that DF bad she's a nurse. I already had a flight booked for early hours of Saturday morning she just said be prepared to come earlier but I have been so for the past 2 years. Anyone rang DM she insisted my phone was out of order, that's why she didn't leave a message (it's not), and if it was why not use mobile?. She was absolutely horrible to me, more so when I said I wasn't going to drop everything and go, even though I told her that I have a flight booked for Saturday. She made all sorts of threats about if he dies today he'll be buried Friday and what will happen if we are not there before putting the phone down on me (This seems to be her latest thing). All the stuff I've had before but I just cannot cope with it any longer. I've been on edge ever since she hung up on me last week, not sleeping and constantly getting adrenaline rush as if you had just had to slam the breaks on the car. If there were to be a funeral Friday she's not going to get many attendees. She'll be expecting my kids and her siblings in the UK and US to turn up. (DS1 is in emergency services, DS2 is 2 hours from her, but is holiday cover for his boss so not instantly available). Although it's traditional in Ireland for funerals to take place that fast I've checked with DS2s partner (in Dublin) and she says that these days, it is quite common for them to be delayed for up to a week, and most would wait to at least to Saturday. Honestly I just wish it would all end. Not that I think DF dying will resolve problems with DM but it will be one less stick to beat me with.

frami do you think your F will be aware of you being there? If not, who are you going for? Yourself? Your abusive M?

I know it's traditional to feel that you 'have' to congregate around someone who is dying, but I've never quite got it myself. It's the life you've had with that person that counts, not the last five minutes. And if your family is at best dysfunctional and at worst abusive, the usual rules don't apply anyway.

I hope I don't sound cruel - I'm just trying to help put some perspective on things. Your M is just trying to screw with your head by saying the funeral would be that soon. She's making it all about what SHE needs.

It all sounds really crap for you. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Frami I am disgusted on your behalf - it's terrible that your M is using the death of your father as a stick to beat you with, but that seems to be par for the course with narcs.

Try to keep remembering that you have done nothing wrong. She is acting dispicably and you owe her nothing

Spare thank-yoy she is trying to screw my head (she always does) and it is all for her. I mean what difference is it going to make for my Dad, he hasn't a clue who or what I am anyway. He's been bedridden for months. Both my sister and I say it's now all about my Mum and her needs. This has been going on for 2 years. My first posts were on Dimentia thread before I discovered S. Homes. I have pointed out to DM numerous times how the chances of us being there when he goes is almost nil (there's a large expanse of sea to negotiate for a start.) but she sees this as part of my lack of care for DF and her. I have to prove love by action in my Mum's eyes, she likes martyrdom and the attention it brings. She enjoys telling me how all the medics, carers etc think she's wonderful. That the funeral takes place that quickly is definitely possible. My Mother is a stickler for tradition but should he die in the next minute its too late for a funeral Friday. The Registry Office is closed and moan as she might they are not going to open just for her. Funerals do take place even on Sundays in Ireland but only if the paperwork can be done on time. DM will be expecting me to do all that, she will be too distraught.

So many of you have these awful situation that have happened. I'm sorry to see it. This is what makes me think my stuff is minor. My mum would never break down my door. I think it might be that my parents are just somewhat dysfunctional and definitely of a different era, although both are seemingly ardent feminists. D is openly racist and M is covertly so. And what they thought was best for me and what I should be doing ruled my life. I loved horse riding, but as neither of them saw the appeal, they simply deemed it too expensive, and I only got to go periodically. Whereas I would have given up all my other hobbies to fund the riding, as I loved it. They thought I should be "rounded", so I never even suggested that. I played an instrument reluctantly for years as I was not allowed or guilt tripped to continue. Same story with many other hobbies. They also controlled my comings and goings and effectively decided who could be my friend, with the result that I had no friends to see in my spare time (was sick of the interrogations and strict home times). I spent my youth alone in my room waiting to grow up and move away. My depressive pleaser nature perpetuated it all, since another person would have simply rebelled. I would have never dared to.

We were relatively wealthy (on the top 500 rich list of our country one year), but I never got any allowance, so I had to wear awful clothes until I could get a job and fund nicer ones for myself, as well as a cd player and cds. As a result I felt like an ugly geek. And that past still haunts me. There was no need for that, but they decided their priorities were travelling (which I hated. It was always like a school trip with tons of museums and churches). Now I am determined DS will have clothes he feels happy in.I am forever pushing "cool" brands at him, even if he is still young enough not to really care and would rather wear something with Minecraft on. Funnily enough, M now buys him whatever he likes.

While they do not disrupt my life as much as other people's parents in this thread they have had a hand in shaping my recurrent mental health and self-esteem problems. I use external things like degrees, money, looks and work to assess my worth and come up short. I'm my own worst critic and that is partly due to the expectations that were put on me growing up. Tellingly my M has never said I was beautiful. Only that I have uniquely attractive looks. DP is the first one to have ever called me that. And I find it hard to believe even though he is very sincere. I'm afraid that he will one day mock me for believing that. I wish I could fix my self-esteem...

Alas, very few stately homes on my childhood holidays, as the destination was invariably central Europe. But churches. Damn churches! One year M took it upon herself to make me write a holiday diary. Correction, she told me to write down stuff about all the churches and museums I had seen each day. In German. In great (boring) detail.

A normal, 'nice' parent would choose a funeral date, even an 'as soon as possible' one, that ensures immediate family who would want to be there have time to get there, surely? If your M doesn't do that, she is being the cruel one, not you.

I totally get the martyrdom stuff. My M loves being the martyr and getting the sympathy. I think it's because she doesn't feel the feelings properly so she overdoes the stuff for show to compensate. A normal person feeling a normal amount of sympathy/empathy doesn't need other people to tell them how well they respond to others because they already know it for themselves through being in touch with their own feelings.

That last for frami. Sorry for cross posting!

yesyes everyone says their situation is not as bad as everyone else's. There are lots of different ways our parents derail our lives and yours are just as valid as anyone's.

I had the crap clothes too, and like you am determined DD will never have the same experience!

I need somewhere to rant because I hate my mother. She's literally destroyed me as a person with her spiteful bullying and narcissistic ways. I'm so broken.
From such a young age I was 'de sensitised' which was her making fun of me at every opportunity and now I still can't do do certain things it was relentless.
When I was 14 I had noro. She snarled at me it was the poison coming out and left me all night I was so scared and so Ill. It could have been anyhingbwhat if I'd had meningitis or something she didn't care I could have been dead the next day😔 Sometimes I wish I had been.
She ruined my friendships and locked me in the house. Withheld water if I went out and I'd have to sneak and drink from the bathroom taps.
She forced me to terminate my first pregnancy aged 18 in the second trimester. Then locked me up and wouldn't let dh phone me as took my phone and charger and he was banned from the house.
I planted flowers for my baby. She dug them up
She never would let dh in the house so I had to struggle alone to look after dc. She would t help me and was horrible took all my money and my milk tokens
She threw me out a few years later on dsis say so I'm the middle of the night with the children who were very small and it was traumatic for them.
I tried to be the better person but I'm constantly treated like shit.

Recently dsis had a baby. Dm never forced her to have an abortion or made her feel like crap. She let them move on with her and her dh is allowed there she gets help and I had to struggle ?
If I mention what she's done to me she starts crying saying I'm being nasty to her that I'm not letting her forget and I'm punishing her ????
I can't cope with it it's mind games and I'm so damaged from years of this. She has been mean to my dc on so many occasions she tries to divide and conquer like she did to me my db and dsis growing up and keeps favouring dsis child and mine now feel like I used to. She mocks them and is nasty.
When dm nearly died in 2014 it was me who saved her life and then cared for her as dsis didn't want to she was even abusive to dm and yet dm has forgotten that. Or maybe she likes it that dsis is just like her but that year I missed xmas with my children to care for her when dsis refused and she didn't have dcs then and I don't know why I bothered sometimes I wish I'd left her to die because she forced me to kill my baby.

I'm not a complete person because of what she's done to me. My own mother doesn't love me what does that say about me I'm totally broken

Bad pretty much and because i havent responded in the way they would have liked me to (how i normally would) then im getting the silent treatment from my mum. You are right he is my family and main priority. I havent been allowed to be my true self and the thought of being able to do what i want without judgement is quite exciting. I guess i just now need to deal with not seeing them, that will be the hard part.

Attila yes now thinking about it more, she also likes him to depend on her. So picking him up when he can walk and she wants kisses and cuddles from him. Gets jealous if his attention is with someone else. Writing this down i realise how awful it all is. My DF lets her get away with alot of stuff and she pushes him so far sometimes he just snaps. I dont know how he has so much patience with her. The stuff shes told me she did when they were first together, she sounded a crazy nightmare!! But he still stuck around and she likes to blame it on PMT. PMT doesnt last 24/7!!

frami this sounds like an awful situation, im sorry! I don't have any advice but i hope your mother isnt too awful when you next see her. Maybe surround yourself with other family memebers.

yes no your situation is just as important. I think we all try minimise our experiences. But they all make us feel awful. What you've said really touched a nerve with me as quite alot i can relate to. They are also openly racist (which i hate). Made me feel bad for keeping a hobby and therefore did it for longer than i would have liked to. I had strict hometimes/interrogations. Not many friends came to my house as she didnt like it. I never dared to rebel either and also am a people pleaser. I feel they have damaged my self esteem too, not about my looks but things like clothes. I'd always be judged and even told to change if she didnt like what i was wearing/how i looked.

Thank you, Chocolate and Spare.
I don't know why I never rebelled. I was scared they would throw me out, I suppose. Or imprison me in my room with no TV or radio? My (younger) brother sort of did rebel, but he was allowed more freedom anyway.

yes I'm the same, i dont know why i never stuck up for myself! Usually if i did though id get met with intimidation tatics. Also they would threat to throw me out alot. My younger sister rebelled and stood up for herself more when she was older. Now my mum knows not to mess with her as she will tell my mum what she thinks. She was also allowed more freedom which angered me. Not towards my sister but towards my parents

yesyes I think children of dysfunctional mothers rarely rebel because in my case I was living on eggshells, always worried when I'd get the silent treatment. Always the risk of doing something wrong, you'd have no idea what you have done, might be something really trivial, which you'd have to be a mind reader to know that's what she wanted of you. It's why, for the past 30 years I have never stay more than a week in her house. It was much easier having her stay with me, but that ended when DF got ill.

Frami I want to say that if I were you I'd make your father's funeral the last time you have anything to do with your mother. But I kept in contact with my mother for another five years after my dad died (and regretted every minute of it) so I am not one to talk.

It sounds bloody exhausting, specially with all the phoning from your uncle who is blatantly acting as a flying monkey here.

I'm going to say a thing, and I'm really sorry if this is me overstepping the mark: but, if you ignore your mother and stick with your original plan, what is the worst that could happen? Your dad has moderate/severe dementia, so I'm guessing he doesn't know that he's gravely ill. (My dad was the same - he had mild dementia and then got cancer, which when it progressed also affected his memory). So while I appreciate that you want to spend time with him, you don't have the worry that in his final hours he will be distressed, wanting to see you before he dies. Of course you want to go to the funeral, but any reasonable person would delay the funeral until his children could get there - there are millions of families in this situation, it's totally normal to wait. If she arranges the funeral for the day after your dad dies then it'll be for pure spite and nothing else.
I know you have a close extended family and you don't want to be seen as the bad kid in front of them - it's not easy. Your mother will present you in the worst light possible - she's been crying wolf about your dad's imminent demise about every 10 days since 2015 but you can be sure that when he does die, if you're not there, she'll tell the family how you were warned and still didn't come in time. They love this stuff.

I appear to have a bit of a flying monkey situation going on myself right now. I feel a bit unsettled. As you all know I guess, I'm pretty decisively estranged from my mother - she doesn't have my current contact details and I've told her that I don't want to reconcile. I'm full NC. I have been for 2 years, and it's been great - I haven't talked to any of the family about it, was happy to allow her to say whatever she wanted about it. But she's just rocked up on Facebook.
My mother's been pretty technically illiterate up till now so I'm assuming one of my cousins has set her up there. DH and I have blocked her. But she's been friended by half a dozen of my (many) cousins and I'm guessing that at some point someone's going to notice that we're not friends. So I'm wondering if there are going to be any questions from any of them. IDK. It's funny because I'd been thinking about trying to make contact with some of the cousins, at least the part of the family that my mother broke with a few years ago, as they were always my favourites (and not just because my mother couldn't stand them!) But you know now I'm just thinking fuck it, I would gladly give over any contact to my relatives to ensure that I never have to see her again. Fuck. It's been so peaceful these past couple of years.

I was constantly walking on eggshells, but it was my reality, so didn't realise that it was wrong. In my father's case, yes, as he was a terror, but I ended up just holding up in my room waiting to grow up and move away. It's time now for me to properly grow up and become independent, which is hard as I suffer from such, occasionally debilitating, mental health problems. It's like I have this ultra rational side of me, that is very old, but also this scared and angry young person living within me. I have had therapy before, but still find it hard to let go of that anger. And the fear. I don't feel as if I am as equipped as other people to be an adult, IYSWIM. I'm worried I will lose that, albeit dysfunctional, safety net I have my parents. Every job I have had I have felt like an imposter in. I don't value myself. I find criticism especially hard. And it makes me feel very angry and down, so I never attempted to do anything I am not sure I can do almost instantly. Perhaps there is a touch of narcissism in me :( It makes it hard to know what kind of job to look for. I am experienced and competent on paper, but just scared to apply for anything I challenging. Maybe it will always be thus. Which will make it hard to pay back my debts.

toomuch if shes blocked then surely she wont be able to see you on other peoples friends lists/things your tagged in. So she might just think youre not on there

Thanks toomuch It is my intention to break contact with DM after the funeral. My father is actually totally bedridden, incontinent, has to be fed liquidised food. . He can literally do nothing for himself. This is why I would not go and nurse him, even if I lived near. I just can't. My Mother thinks this makes me the pits but that is how I am. He is actually the greatest advert to go out and smoke, drink, eat junk food, everything that is bad. If he had done that he would not have such a strong body and heart and would have succumbed to infection before it got to this stage. According to my aunt who lives nearby but whom DM has alienated so much that she barely sees her. She said that DF is quietly slipping away but we know that anyway. I am sticking to my original plans, the earliest the funeral can take place now is Saturday anyway. DH is coming too. He has not let me go alone since Dec 2015 when she really foul, something that really annoys my Mum. He has orders to never leave me alone with her. Even to warn me if he goes to the loo so I can lock myself away. I know my Mother she will not want me to leave on Monday morning and will do her utmost to corner me (not in front of others) and launch a verbal assault. She's done it before but she never attacks in front of anyone, least of all DH. She knows that he will stand up to her that's one of the reasons she loathes him.

toomuch I think you can alter the settings on FB so one person is excluded from seeing anything you post but I'm not sure if this or straignt blocking will work. A while back DS2 did something of which neither he nor we are very proud of. (All forgotten now.) He tried to do a runner and changed his FB account but shortly after his face came up with different name on side bar inviting me to be friends with him!

toomuch I'd hate it if my M went on FB. As it is I stupidly befriended a friend of hers from church who I used to get on with 30 years ago, and said friend kept passing stuff back to my M that I'd put on there, and then my M would bring it up with a martyred air of 'How come I've had to find this out from my friend instead of you?' (It was stuff I had no intention of actually telling my M as I feel like telling her anything other than grey rock stuff is like handing over a bit of my soul) - so in the end I put the friend on Restricted. They still think they're my friend but they don't see anything I post any more.

Chances are if your M's not very technical she won't be on there much. But it must have been horrible having her pop up like that.

yesyes have you considered more therapy? It sounds as though your inner child and your grown up self need to be reconciled somehow and a therapist should be able to help you towards that type of recovery where you could explore the feelings of the child within you in a safe and supported way. Also if you haven't read them already, books by Alice Miller or Pete Walker might be able to help in that way.

My mum messaged me last night regarding fb actually. I had put her and DF on restricted so the only reason they would be friends i think would be to see pics of my DS. So i havent spoken to her in 3 days (thats long for her) then i just get hurled abuse as shes realised ive put them on restricted. Instead of asking why in a reasonable why she started calling me childish and that she werent bothered anyway and saved me the hassle and unfriended me. Saying two can play that game etc. There was no reasoning with her. There was so much i wanted to say to her but i know if i do it will be the point of no return.

How does the restricted list thing work? I'm not good with FB...

I have a similar thing - months ago my M (who is computer illiterate) asked me to add her friend on FB so she could see my pics (fine). I vaguely know the woman; she's nice enough and it seemed harmless.

But I only know this woman through my M, and now that we are NC, she will have been told all about how terrible I am and her access to my FB page will be a way for my M to keep tabs on me.

flump if you're using the mobile app click on the menu icon in the bottom right corner (it's 3 lines), then scroll down to near the bottom and click on privacy shortcuts. You'll then have all the security settings in there.