"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you for all your kind posts And pansy, thank you for sharing how you felt - we share very similar emotions.

At least my mother managed to form a mostly good bond with my DC. That is some comfort.

Hi everyone. It's quiet here this week! Hopefully that means everyone is having a lovely peaceful week

I don't really know what to say about myself but I wanted to touch base. I think for me I'm kind of letting the dust settle a bit with everything. Contact with family has been OK recently which fills me with self doubt. But I am really noticing how unbothered/ uninterested they all are about me right now, which does hurt. It's like it's friendly (although not jibe-free) when I am there but when I am not on the other end of the phone then I feel like I just don't exist.

I've written on here before about my mother and our difficult relationship. My father has advanced Altzheimer's. 1st December 2015 he was given a week to live. He recovered and since then he has been in and out of hospital. My mother uses this as a stick to beat me (I should be there caring for him etc.) I've written before how she has no affection for me and I can never please her etc (please read my old postings). My last post on here was August 2016 when I was being pressured to give up my holiday and go over to her (my parents live in Ireland). In the event I didn't but arranged to go over immediately on my return. However the night before I was due to go I fell seriously ill, taken into hospital. I then had to have an operation at the end of October. Since then my mother has sort of left me alone. I think she got a bit of a fright as she actually rang me to enquire after my health when I was in hospital (she never voluntary rings). My father has been in hospital a couple of times since and I have been summoned over, I have not gone alone (she hates my husband of 30 years but won't attack with him present). An uneasy truce would best describe my relationship with my mother at the moment. I don't really think she has any real affection for me, never expresses any, she may not see me for months but a peck on the cheek is the most I'll get by way of greeting. With holding affection and sulking for days is one of her controlling methods, used it even when I was a child. Now to get to my current worry is that I have had a call to say my Dad now has pneumonia. He's apparently been in hospital for 5 days noone called me till now. He's was in hospital with chest infection 5 weeks ago when I went over. He may or may not get over this new infection (horrible as it makes me sound part of me wishes he wouldn't.) but I am dreading if he doesn't pull through. In Ireland funerals take place within 3 days, they may be extended but my Mother won't have this, she will demand everyone attends and of course that would normally happen. However my daughter starts her GSCEs on Monday (she has 5 papers next week and another 4 the following) there is no way, if the worse happens she'll be able to attend. Even if we were to leave for the airport now it would still take us at least 5 hours to reach my mothers house, so a day trip is not feasible. I am terrified of telling my mother this. She will not see how hard it will be for my daughter, nor for me to leave her alone at home (Hope my neighbour will stay with her) and will attack me at every opportunity. My Dad may recover again but in the meantime any advice on coping with this would be appreciated. SOrry to ramble.

Frami sorry to hear all that. I've only been on this thread a few weeks so don't really know your backstory.

I don't really have any words of advice - I'm sorry - but I'm wondering if you do actually want to leave your DD to go the funeral, if it happens, or if you would rather stay with your daughter to support her through her exams? Her GCSE's are important (goes without saying). If your mother won't try to accommodate this and move things back if she can, it says much more about her than it does about you.

I've done a bit of reading on the subject and am trying to put theories into practice myself atm - one of the big ones being to realise I am not responsible for my mother's feelings, anymore than she is for mine (if I remember to put my 'big girl pants' on, that is). Ie to dis-engage and do what you want to do. And if that is to stay with your DD, then you have every right to do that without feeling guilty.

You can't stop your mother trying to attack you and take out her problems on you - all you can do is to try and stop letting it affect you.

Now I just need to take my own advice...

My dad died when I was still living at home - and for years I couldn't understand why my mum was being so nasty to me at times when we'd both lost somebody we 'loved'. But now I realise that his death just brought out the worst of her narc personality

So I would just say be prepared for that possibility and look for comfort from the people you can trust

Hi Chest. Glad to hear you're ok atm . All quiet here too (as in zero contact with my mother & associated relatives). I'm not surprised she's still sulking as in the past it's always been me doing the running, so as I am not it will be 'interesting' to see how long she keeps it going - I'm trying to disengage and look upon it as an interesting experiment!

I'm a bit surprised she's not sent out any flying monkeys yet - she's used my sibling and other relatives to try and guilt-trip me before - but that's not happened either. And as far as I know she doesn't yet realise she can't just let herself into my house the next time she fancies it

DH thinks the next thing that will happen is she will turn up all glum faced to tell me she's ill

Thanks Flump not to leave my daughter would be the ideal but not possible. I have a really large extended family and the fallout would just be too much. As with your mother, my father's condition has brought out the worse in her, I used to think he protected me from her but I have since come to realise that he also enabled her. If you read my posts from 2015 www.mumsnet.com/.../2517841-Ailing-father-difficult-mother-I-need- to-rant. You can see just how difficult h̶o̶r̶r̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ my mother can be.

Hi frami My mother withholds affection and sulks too so I empathise with how difficult that can be. I haven't gone through what you're going through but I have just woken up to the fact that I've always put my mother first, even above my OH and my son. Fortunately there doesn't seem to be any lasting damage as a lot of what I did for her I did when I worked part time and so they were none the wiser. But having said that now that my son is home from uni (he finished about a year ago), my mum had been slowly stepping up the manipulation and had begun to try attempting to manipulate me to dislike my son when I woke up.

The only advice I can give you is to put your daughter first at all costs, I know if she's doing her exams that she's not a small child but she's still vulnerable and she still needs you. I often wonder what it would have been like to have a mother that is supportive, I narrowly escaped having my son wonder the same thing, albeit for different reasons. My mum was attempting to manipulate me to think of my son as being lazy, greedy and selfish ... all because him being home means I can't drop everything to rush out and listen to her complain. She tried many different angles, the tricks she tried are just wow! all extremely manipulative, what she didn't figure on was that I actually love my son. When all else failed she broke down crying.

Please think about putting your daughter first, I could have lost my son if I'd have allowed my mum to manipulate me, that would have made having a shit selfish mother pale into insignificance. It makes me feel sick thinking about it. Xx

I'm after some advice/suggestions please? Have been nc with my dm for nearly 6 years all good, no problems really, feel pretty indifferent towards her now tbh, BUT, db is getting married and there will be a reception/party a few weeks later (they are getting married abroad me and my family are attending this, my dm is not) and my dm will be there as my Db is still in contact with her, any ideas how to deal with it, don't want to cause a situation for my db or anyone else really. Do I just go with polite but short and avoid her where possible? Suggestions?

Frami I do agree with Treacle. If you want to stay with your DD for her exams, really have a think about if you can make that happen - she does legitimately need you - whereas your mother doesn't.

I understand what you say about extended family and the fallout - I get that completely - but I would also tell them that supporting your DD comes first. No reasonsble person could argue with that...

But anyway, hopefully it won't come to that

Hi Flump and Chest It's all quiet at my end at the mo. I've taken this week off work, I've not told my mum I'm off and I don't feel guilty about that

I've been mulling over a few things, some stuff has been slotting into place and making sense. I don't like a lot of it, some of it is pretty uncomfortable but I'm okay with it because I can see clearly. The clarity is giving me confidence if that makes sense. I feel a mug for not seeing it sooner yet grateful that I've seen it at all.

Me and OH had a bit of a chat at the weekend, the back story is that my parents come to ours for Christmas dinner but every year they turn up hours earlier than arranged and always find something (lots of things) to complain about. We're pretty laid back but agreed that if you're invited to someone's home for dinner then it's not good form to bitch and moan, no matter who you are. We also realised that Christmas had become all about what she wanted as over the years I'd desperately tried to address her complaints. So... this year we're bringing it right back to how we want it. (Seriously thinking that when she complains of telling her to try somewhere else next year but I don't think I'm that brave ... not yet).

Ha Treacle that's a coincidence - DH and I were talking about Christmas at the weekend. My M usually comes to us & stays a few days - by the end of which I am usually feeling quite shit

I love Christmas and put a lot of effort into making everything lovely - meanwhile she will sit on her arse in the corner, make one barbed remark and everything gets soured. And even worse, I always have to play down being happy with any presents DH gets me because in the past if if i've given him a kiss/hug or vice versa she's thrown a strop

So we've decided this year we will have Christmas with just our family (ie us & the DC). I'm hoping I can gently suggest to my Dsis that M goes to hers for Christmas this year and it will be as simple as that... I'm sure it won't be that easy though...

Christmas is a funny one, it brings out the best in some and the worst in others. As soon as I turned 16 my parents would go away to Spain for Christmas and New Year and leave me home alone, even when my son was small they'd still go until one year they just didn't. By that time I'd be mid to late 30's and had already established traditions (that me and my son had made up . They've occasionally gone away but the past 10 to 12 years they've been here more than they've not, they 'look' at going away every year but it's been too expensive so they'll come to ours . I know they'd rather be on holiday abroad, they're not into Christmas like we are, they don't even put a tree up, so it really gets to me when they come round here and complain because things arnt to her liking. One year, she even complained that I didn't verbally 'invite' her and that it's no good expecting her to just come because it meant that she didn't know for sure if she was welcome or not . From then on I'd make a huge deal of inviting her around October time, I was thinking I was being amusing but bottom line is, she manipulated me to get what she wanted...again.

In other news, I had a tab on my phone browser open on the page advertising their house for sale, when I was flicking through it refreshed and it says Sold STC. They've not told me the news themselves so it reminded me of when we moved house a few years ago, my mum had an out and out hissy fit then a huge arms folded sulk because we'd bought a house without letting her view it first. She really couldn't believe I'd done that to her. It's being reminded of things like that that make me realise why she thinks I'm 'disobedient' and 'hard work' and why I have constantly tried, but failed, to gain her approval.

Btw Flump My mum really badly bitches about affectionate people, she talks about them as though they're evil and weird. She shudders and calls them false, show offs and the best one ... they think they're posh . The other week I touched my OHs shoulders as I squeezed past him, he was seated, he turned to me and smiled, mum scoffed then burned holes in me. A few months ago I'd have been scared to do that again but not now. I'm tempted to go for full on snog next time, or at least tickle his knee, but I'll see how grave I feel.

Brave not grave lol

Theworst that's very strange - but spookily apt

How did it happen? Where were you?

Treacle My M says almost the same thing - false and showing off. DH says if/when she comes to our house again I shouldn't let her affect my natural behaviour and we should make a point of being kissy & cuddly in front of her. The thought of it is hilarious actually - she will go through agony and will 100% guaranteed not be able to cope - I can just imagine her 'bulldog chewing a wasp' face .

When we got new carpets a few years ago my M said I was a 'spoilt brat' . The biggest joke about that is that I have 3 DC and work as well - My M gave up working the day she got married in her 20's and has never worked since. Irrelevant really but ggggrrrrrrrrr!!

Treacle my mother considers open dispays of affection to be "Middle Class" . She's openly affectionate to my father and small children but once they reach an age whereby they start to know their own mind she starts the emotional manipulation.

Theworst Wow! That is weird but also good. Maybe he's an angel sent to look out for you xx

I'm a spoilt brat when I get new things too flump. Both my parents are weird about money though, my mum hoards it yet my dad spends it like it's going out of fashion. They both get greedy, bitter and nasty about it but for completely different reasons, it's definitely a subject to be avoided.

frami I wonder if my mum's thinking is a throwback to the old days when the middle class did the air kiss greetings. If would make sense because she's from a working class background, her dad worked down the pit, and although she's done okay for herself she despises anyone that she considers 'well to do'. It just reinforces my thinking that she's stuck at age six, it's like she's not moved on from the 1950's.

I'm feeling a bit exhausted from thinking about things today. I think I needed to do it, I needed a bit of time and space to get my thoughts in order, but it's been more tiring than spending the day cleaning.

Treacle she sounds just like my Mum. Very working class background, now very wealthy but stuck in the mindset of the 1950s which in the poorer parts of Ireland were like the UK in the 1930s. She hasa sort of inferiority complex which manifests itself in an instant dislike to anyone she perceives as being not like her including my husband of over 30 years!

Well after three weeks of silent treatment the shit has really, really hit the fan. I can't sleep so I'm blurting it all out - I realise any normal person will now be asleep but anyway....

My mum phoned my house phone tonight and I didn't answer it, but she kept ringing and ringing. Eventually dc1 answered and said I was out. He then told me it was her and that she sounded really weird and said I had taken her stuff or something. Then she rang my mobile. I answered and was thinking in my head 'keep calm, don't engage' but as soon as She spoke she started attacking me. I had gone to her house a few weeks ago and had borrowed all her old photo albums to scan so I have copies - in the past she's thrown away things of my dad's that I would have wanted so it had been niggling me for a long time that i hardly has any photos of him. I had left her s note to say I was borrowing them to scan. As we've fallen out (ie she's been giving me the silent treatment) I had not told her I was borrowing them. This has been the first time I havent chased her and grovelled her out of her silent treatment so it's gone on longer than ever before. Anyway she immediately starts shouting at me that I've turned her grandson against her (because he told her I wasnt at home when I clearly was). Then she said that I've stolen her photo albums and that I am a thief. She says after everything she's done for me over the years I should have learnt some decency. At that point I lost it too and said I couldnt believe she had the nerve to talk to me about decency after the disgusting things she's said to me, and in front if my children. And I said I havent turned anybody against her, she's done it herself by acting the way she has right in front of them.

Then she really started shouting. She said that I am an evil little girl and I always have been. That I split up families and ruin everything I touch. She said everybody who knows me knows what I am, that they know I am a thief and that I am trouble. She said my sister knows I am a thief - she reminded me that I used to 'break in' to my sisters bedroom when we were kids and I would steal her make up and things (she's a bit older than me). At that point DH came in and sat next to me and was rubbing my leg and quietly saying 'come on, calm down, it's not worth it..' She must have heard him because then she said 'and he will realise what you're like one day and wont want anything to do with you, and so will they' (my dc?). She said I ruin everything I touch and always will.

But I've been married nearly 18 years and we are so happy (apart from when she's around...). And our DC are lovely, I'm so proud of them and how kind they are to each other, no game playing, no ganging up and bitching, nothing. How does could somebody who is 'evil' have managed to raise children like that?

Anyway she's ranting and says 'I've walked over hot coals for you all my life' and I say 'Really? Like when you stood back and watched my ex abuse me and said nothing? Like when you sneered in my face and asked if I remembered the last thing I ever said to my dad before he died?' (We'd had an argument - there were lots of them at the time - I was a teenager.

I tell her I have tried to avoid arguing with her, but that she cannot come to my house and say horrible things in front of my children. I say that the last time she came round they were upset by what she said. She laughs and says 'rubbish, they must have had very sheltered lives in your perfect little house if that's the worse they've ever heard' and I say, yes, actually, nobody else would ever say anything like that.

Then she slams the phone down on me. I get in a state, crying and feeling sick. When I've calmed down a bit Dh says I need to speak to my sister, that I need to have some faith in her that she will understand. But she and I have never discussed the whole mother thing - we always talk to each other about superficial shit and pretty much always with my mum in the middle. Anyway I tell her what's happened. I tell her I wanted to keep her out of it but it's been building up for ages and I know my mum has said 'everyone will know I'm a thief' and I want her to know about the borrowed photo albums. She's a bit shocked but actually really surprises me. When I tell her that Mum is always angry and I don't know why, my sister says that gets that from her too. When I say dh and I are not allowed to be nice to each other because it makes her sick, she says yes, she's experienced that too. Then I say I worry about her DC because I see my mum getting in there and stirring and favouring one child over the other, saying one is perfect and that the other is 'bad'. And then she says, 'I do know that'. I say to her that I dont want us to fall out and I want it to keep separate from my argument with my mum, that whatever My mum may say I've not said anything bad about her and want us to be ok. She says I need to calm down and not worry and it will be ok. She then tells me that she's never said it to me but years ago when our dad died she saw mum in a different way and realised she was very immature emotionally and couldn't look after herself. She said from that point on she's never looked upon our mum as a 'mother' because she doesn't think she is capable of being one.

I was really shocked but then she said she could hear somebody moving around and then said 'oh, I'm sorry, I will have to go, mum has just turned up and let herself in'. So she went.

And I presume the rest of tonight my mum will have been doing her best to convince her that I am indeed an 'evil little girl' and a thief. I don't know what will happen now, I feel sick. I don't know when I will hear from my sister again - I am sure my mum will stick to her like glue now because she won't want to give me the chance to speak to her alone again.

Anyway, sorry for the brain dump. I'm hoping now I've blurted it all out I can get some sleep.

Oh heck Flump

She really did let it all out

How are you feeling this morning? Xx

Thanks Treacle mostly tired as I didn't sleep, and a bit horrified at the size of my eyebags this morning... Other than that just really wired and freaked out, I can't relax at all.

I've never heard anyone sound so angry and full of hate and venom and I'm scared of what she's going to do next - I know for a start she will try to poison anybody who knows me about me. So much for detaching and not letting her upset me. I never even got the chance to tell her about the new lock and wanting some 'boundaries'

lol I did think she's blown her chances of ever getting a key now

I don't want to sound like I'm brushing off how you feel but I think the days of 'what will people think' are over now. These days people don't usually happily go along with what they're told, not like they used to, people generally question why they're being told things. It probably won't stop her trying if that's her MO but she'll be lucky to find a captive audience.