What do they bring to the table?

[1DAD2KIDS]

So moving on from my impending divorce I am very much challenging my once fairly tail view of love and relationships and exploring new ideas. So I am locking my heart away in a little box for a bit and trying to let my brain help me work out the future in stead.

So sould we consider when finding a future long term relationship/marriage what people bring to the table in terms of earnings, liability and capital? I will just add at this point what I may say is a bit controversial and is a thought experiment of my mine not necessarily my opinion.

So a bit of background. I was young and had a good career and feel in love with a School drop out with no qualifications. We fell in love and I married her. All the years she was in and out of jobs. She could be because I could always support her. She never showed much intrest in providing for her self or making a career for her self. She was quite happy for someone to provide for her. So I always worked my nuts of to earn even more and provide a future reflecting this lack of contribution. Not a problem we were married and would l be together for ever. But then it went wrong and then I realised the things I have worked hard for were in jeapody.

Made me think. I used to think all you need is love but now I think you listen to your brain too. Looking on OLD many profiles allude (overtly or not) looking for a man in work with a decent job. Often on dates I get the very early questions trying to suss out what I do for work and the quality of my life style. Now apologies for the next bit as it may sound like I am being a dick. But often these people I have dated earn a fair bit less, have liabbilities such as kids (I know it sounds cold but in terms of finance) and big debts and/or have little capital such as owning a property. Just to put into context I am 33 and the people I generally date are my age or older. So if women are interested in a man's standing and financial position then why should a man be interested in a woman's standing and financial? If I look at relationships from this angle should we get in a long term relationship/marriage with anyone who does not bring to the table and simular offering than us?

Society would improve if women refused to consciously reproduce with men who are sexist misogynists (I appreciate there can be accidents and other exceptions to this). That way these men do not get to pass on their toxic views. If they say to women that if they want children it falls to them to be mainly responsibility for childcare and domestic arrangements, why waste any more time with this person - next!

If women refuse to be with such men and have high standards for themselves, men realise they will have to change to have a family life (or not but at least the damage is limited).

Most couples are much more equal until the first child comes along.

Most men say they are committed to sharing housework and childcare. But in their heads they believe they the woman is 100% responsible and they will " help out " when they have time / it's not inconvenient /if they like the task and find it rewarding. For this help they think they deserve cookies.

eg the divorced fathers on this board who tell you they do half of the parenting of their children. When you enquiry they actually do one night per week and EOW, which is is 8-10 nights per month, so less than 30%. Plus they don't do half the school holidays.

Most of them will say they pay for their kids child suport, when it turns out they pay the CSA minimum at best. So a tiny proportion of the costs of raising a child.

But to them it's a HUGE deal and they go on about it all the time. If they really believed they should be doing 50% by right, why do they boast about 30% ? Because it's more parenting than they ever did before.

E.g. The women who come on here to complain about their partners "paying his ex wife " . They say " he gives her £20 a week , it's too much , it doesn't cost £40 a week to feed a child .

Because they actually believe that it's the mother responsibility to provide everyhthing else - home, utilities, education, transport, clothes, childcare, activtites etc.

If the fathers are doing a tiny bit , they are Heroes.

Kr1stina spot unfortunately.

Kr1stina, yep. Agree completely.

blueshoes I wonder if what your proposing will cut birth rates? What if these attitudes didn't change? Then you would have the few men with the right attitudes being incredibly hot property and lots of women stuck without a man who fits this criteria and thus no one to bread with.

I must admit I was never bothered about having kids too much. But my ex wife was desperate to have them. We talked, I warmed up to the idea and then we made dd. But I could of happily gone without having kids. Of course the world changes when you have one so we had ds to keep her company. I love those kids more than anything and wouldn't be without them now. But I never had any plans for kids.

Also makes me wonder is a sort of cold way was is the point to having kids if we are all desperate (men and women) to concentrate on and further our careers and personal achievements? Do we need kids? Do they hold us back? What is peoples motivation for kids? I mean yes kids are important to the future of the Country but I doubt many people get pregnant out of a sense of patriotism or responsibility to the future labour market?

Of course personally speaking knowing what I know now and experiencing what I have I am thankful every day for having my kids. But twos enough and I would have any more. But if I didn't have them I would have been blissfully unaware of the joys of parenthood and been very happy anyway.

Also I do wonder if women feel the need for kids more than men? I don't know of any research that says either way. Just a thought.

Kr1stina I would argue that this is not always the case. I have been very surprised about the amount of single full time dads I have met since I became one my self. Especially in the circles close to me. It seems to me that single dads tend to be quiet about it. I have now encountered other men who's ex partners left them holding the kids. I was left literally holding the baby when my ex abandoned us, ds was only 6 months old at the time. Its only when you get talking to other men (and we really don't talk openly enough to each other, I think a huge male issue) that I realised I was not alone. It turns out even two of the guys I work with raised their daughters single handily when their partners/wife left them. One of them told me he didn't have a pot to piss in back then and it was very hard. No financial or other help from his ex, she just disappeared an started a new life. It was only later when they got older he was able to get a better job. At least my ex sees them ever 2nd weekend and a few days in the holidays. There is a guy at my dd's school in the same boat. Also I have met some on my travels and know people who know single dads. And then the internet has showed me I am not alone and there are plenty of single parent dads out there. I know its not exactly the norm but there are more probably than you think and maybe some under your nose. Women are capable of being lazy or not as involved on the parenting front. I don't ask for any money of my ex but she keeps saying she will start putting some in savings for the kids. A year and a half down still nothing. I know times are a little tight for her but she still finds plenty of money to smoke. No money for kids but money for cigarettes (or AIBU because I do know that smoking is a tough addiction to break). Still if she didn't it would be about £180 a month she would have to put towards taking the kids places ect that she says she cant afford. It still amazes me how many single dads quietly slip under the RADAR of daily life.

I don't think single dads slip under the radar.

It's just that people don't burst into rooms announcing it - men or women.

Not many of my work colleagues know I'm a single mother. Why would they?

As to women wanting children more...
You could say that women are biologically designed to want to RAISE children more than men.

I don't think you can say you would have been happy not to have children if it weren't for your XW. You split when you were what - 31? It's a bit early to think you would know how you would have been in your 30s!

Girls are definitely raised to consider motherhood as a future life option far more than boys are.

You bought your son a doll complete with bottles and nappies yet?

Thought not.

How many dolls has my daughter been given over the years?

Quite a few.

She's already asked me to care for her babies when she goes back to work. Which is great. Except... bet she hasn't asked her dad to.

There is a lot of societal influence on women seeing themselves as mothers more than men as fathers.

lots of women stuck without a man who fits this criteria and thus no one to bread with
lol @ 'stuck' without a man, many women are far from stuck if they dont have a man in their life...more likely to be stuck with a man than without.
In general men are a net cost/burden to women.

A women can easily find a man to breed with, if a woman doesnt meet a man who she can trust to be a good parent then she cant opt to be a single parent.

Also I do wonder if women feel the need for kids more than men
very probably.... because (as Ellisandra points out) it fits culturally constructed gender norms

Women are capable of being lazy or not as involved on the parenting front
yes women can be feckless and abandon their children, we are not 'hard wired' to be nurturing and self sacrificing.

1DAD2KIDS

I agree that it's not all men , I believe that 10% of single parents are men . And I know there are lots of single dads out there - i married one of them.

But most single dads have previously been working full time, so they have not lost so much money and their place in their career. None of them have taken maternity leave or breastfed or struggled with PND. Men's wages are higher than women's so it's easier to make ends meet.

IME there's greater social suport and public sympathy for single dads than single mums. I've had people tell me to my face how wonderful my DH is for caring for his own children , while ignoring the fact that I care for mine, ours AND his. But I'm not wonderful, I'm just Normal.

Im not saying it's easy for anyone who ho has Ft care of their children on their own. I've been there and I know it's hard.

I do think that You might be rather limiting your choice of potential partners if you will only consider someone who does single parenting exactly the way you do. But I wish you good luck in your search.

1DAD: "blueshoes I wonder if what your proposing will cut birth rates? What if these attitudes didn't change? Then you would have the few men with the right attitudes being incredibly hot property and lots of women stuck without a man who fits this criteria and thus no one to bread with."

At a micro level, women should look out for themselves more and not put up with sexist men. It is easy to buy sperm. It is a fact of life that from a reproductive perspective, men's 'contribution' to the process is easily obtained and men are therefore largely dispensable to women unless they bring something to the table like a fat wallet or help out with the childcare. No need to find a man to breed with - breeding is the easy part.

or to put it crudely
c0ck is cheap and easy to get
you're just flattering yourself with this 'a few men who are incredibly hot property' idea

When I met DH he was 30 and I was 26. I'd just finished an MA and doing relevant work around this. I was quite young when I got married (27) and he was very clear that he wanted kids as soon as possible. I did too, though I possibly could have waited a few years. It seems strange now, but I don't remember ever even discussing any intentions I may have had about returning to work, probably because I didn't want to leave the children with anyone when they were young and I don't think DH had ever considered that I would. He is also very career-driven, probably to the point of being a workaholic, in a way I could never be. You can't really change people like that.
It was 8 years before all 3 of ours were in school. In these last couple of years I've considered going back to work part-time, but he hasn't been keen at all, saying I don't need to and it would put uneccessary strain on the family, etc. It's difficult because he's right in the sense that we don't need the money, but also I don't know whether I actually could do it now anyway after 10 years. So in a way, I feel very privileged that I've been able to have this time with my DC and not have to worry about money or juggling work with childcare, etc. Sometimes though, I do feel kind of weird that I never used my qualifications. I don't regret it exactly, it is what it is and people make their own decisions.
If I was to ever become a single parent I would still be fine financially. I know that, so fortunately no risk there. I do wonder how DH would organise his work around contact arrangements though. Anyway, fingers crossed it'll never come to that!

Ellisandra my experience is they do. I have alwas been aware of the single mothers I have been around and worked with. They talk about it. But its only when getting to know the single dads I know it has come up. I don't think any of them would have said if they didn't know though deeper conversation I was one. Its only then they talk and are very supportive.

Of course you say that only just being 30 how could I ever know my own mind. But there are plenty of people who just know they don't want kids and are happy with that.

DS has not been both dolls but he plays with his sisters dolls. In the same way he has not been bought a wooden train set or building block because we have his sisters and there is no point buying the same toy twice. I like the kids to have range of toys. same policy for him as it was for her. These are the toys out there and you can play with what you want. He likes to cuddle and feed his sisters babies as much as he likes to play with his sisters train set. I don't see any reason why children cant play with dolls or dress up as knights or play with toy guns. His sister loves being a brave knight, she got all the kit. I like that he plays with dolls or with his sister at being vets. In fact its funny because he's still 1 he still learning what everything is. I think toys like dolls teach kids about caring and nurturing. The instinct to care for others is important and of course one day he may be a dad him self and have to raise a baby (hopefully not alone). Likewise toys like double and Lego are important for both creative thinking and developing engineering skill and interest. Also (I know controversial to some) but I have no problem with my kids playing with toy soldiers or toy guns (although we don't have any because the kids have not shown an interest). That sort of role play supports team work, raises moral questions, promotes good communication, duty to others, protecting the weak and exercises the imagination. I don't see anything wrong with kids playing army (maybe biased being ex forces) but I think it can reinforce positive attitudes both personal and to humanity. Plus ds is still a bit young, he has no concept of what a solider is. But dd loves to be a knight and protect everyone from bad people and monsters. She is so big and brave in her knights outfit.

Basically I want my kids to have a balanced range of play and toys. Yes people tend to buy my dd traditional girl stuff and ds more traditional boy stuff. Likewise I have no problem with that either as long as the kids enjoy the toys. I am no toy gender NAZI. But my dd loves to play with all the different toys and so ds. Its funny he's 1.5 yo and he is great to watch because you can now see him playing little scenarios with the Peeper pig characters. I am not of the school of through that says kids cant play with toys traditionally associated with their gender but personally I do think a lot of toys are over gendered (and over pink for some reason). Just let kids play with what they want. And yes to certain extent society may condition them to like a particular type of toy but I don't see the need to be disappointed if say a girl wants to play with a "girl" toy or give her a hard time about it. But it is important to keep the options open for them. I have noticed since starting school my dd is naturally influenced by the kids in her class and likes things like the girl super hero's action figures rather than the boy super hero action figures. But I don't think the girl action figures are a bad. Neither her other Ever After High Rebel dolls. She likes them and has fun with them. She still plays knights and lego and trains.

Formerpigwrestler9 So if men are just ok for breeding with and a disadvantage to a woman why complain when they are not good parents. That's if your only after a sperm donor. And who are these daft men that are that easy just to breed with. I cant imagine consensually impregnating someone on the notion I am just there to breed with. But yet the men are easy to find and willing to impregnate someone just for the sake of breeding. Do these men know they are just there to breed with because it has serious implications. What if men were not available to freely breed with? You paint a sad picture.

But then the whole outlook on the idea of long term relationships and good old fashioned true love it looking pretty bleak to the more I explore.

Kr1stina you raise some good points. Of course men don't breast feed, that is biology. But these days breast feeding is a choice like so many other choises we have to make for our kids that have conciquences on other aspects of our lifes. It is also know for men to suffer from PND, although as is the sad social conditioning in men they are highly likely to suffer in silence. Although it is a little taboo still, its very taboo for men. I don't like the way single dads are treated, I get what your saying. Mainly the way we a treated by women. The main response is like they want to give you some kind of medal. I know they are being nice and supportive but deep down I find it patronising and insulting. Its like being patted on the head for loving your children and being a parent as if its something men cant do? Or women try and treat you like some kind of armature and assume you have no idea about how to look after and raise kids. Or sometimes times they treat you with suspicion. Like its not normal, why has he got the kids, He must be some kind of nasty piece of work who took the kids from his poor ex? I just get treated the way I always have by other men. Not patronised, not treated like a special case, not treated with suspicion.

My "problem" I suspect is and always has been expectation ... If I'd been realistic and expected little more than sperm donation from day one I suspect I would have been a lot happier.

why complain when they are not good parents
women complain when they enter into a partnership with men, and the man doesnt make an equal contribution

a woman can easily have a child without the co operation of a man, since it's very easy for women to find men who are happy to have casual sex, or go to a sperm donor clinic.
Men cant have children without the co-operation of a woman.

I'm not sure what you mean by a sad picture, I'm just pointing out that ultimately women have more value than men because of their much more intensive role in the production of the next generation.
This is why men try to control and take ownership of women.

Ultimately it would be easier for me to not work and certainly after our 3rd it was decided that I would have a break.

After about 6 months I was getting itchy feet. I think I have a deep rooted fear of losing my financial independence. I just don't want to feel as if I have to justify myself to someone (even though my dh would never question what I spent). Personally I don't think that's a trait that is neither male or female, just a personality thing. Frankly my dh would love my to stay at home but he knows it is not open for discussion. I really hate reading the threads of women who are clearly intelligent but who have devolved all control over their fanacial wellbeing. As I said, my mum stayed home with us, I have massive respect for saps.

I agree that I think op should look for someone with a similar attitude when he seeks a new partner.

While I accept that technically we could have children using donors. Am I the only one didn't necessarily want children, but I wanted them once I met my dh??

Formerpigwrestler9 sad in terms of the picture you paint or men and sad in the way you see men of lessor worth in our society. I am not convinced that men go about trying to control women because of their reproductive value. I don't really agree female supremacism ideology.

Plus I think most men are more than just a sperm donor. I know loads of good and dedicated fathers/partners/husbands.

I didn't say you didn't know your own mind at 30
Don't twist my words.
I said that at 30 (well, I said 31) you can't have known that you wouldn't, during your 30s or 40s, have changed your mind.

And yes, long and admirable post about your 1 year old son playing with dolls.
It's not about your ONE boy who anyway you have already said has been bought less dolls by other people than his sister.
It's about boys in society.

Come back to me when he's 5 and tell me how many of his male friends play with dolls, are bought dolls, would never call a doll a boy's toy.

Our culture sets girls up to consider motherhood a likely part of their life, in a way that it doesn't set up boys to be fathers. It's not about what you do with your kids. It's about our culture.

I do think men are being given a hard time on this thread. The men in my life, whether that's friends or family, all stand up to the plate and the women are absolute equals. I can only think of one married couple in my circle where I have thought the wife is going to have it tough when they have their first child in a few months, but that's one out of around 30-40 couples. As I said previously, maybe is a generation thing as I'm close in age to 1DAD.

by and large men need women more than vice versa 1DAD
of course men are more than sperm donors...people are complex and multifaceted, no one can be reduced to just one function

I'm a bit confused as to the point of this thread, you ramble a fair bit, do you have an overarching point?

I think the pattern basically sets in due to the breastfeeding in the early months. I never really got on with expressing milk so the responsibility of the first 6 months (st least) feeding was all down to me.

In the UK at least, that's unlikely to be it because most women breastfeed exclusively for no more than a few weeks. I'm not saying feeding mode can't possibly play a part, indeed it would be disingenuous of me not to mention that for DH and I, formula feeding virtually from birth certainly assisted us in establishing equal parenting relationships from day one. But the reality is that even in the first six months, most feeding of British babies is by formula. So there has to be more afoot than that. It's very complex, I think.

In answer to the OPs question, I think it's fine to have whatever bright lines you want when considering partners. The only caveats are that one, you might not be bringing enough to the table yourself to attract the sort of partner you want. I don't mean that rudely or to be about you specifically OP, just it's obviously possible to have higher standards than one can realistically hope to have met. But that's also ok, if a person prefers to be single than compromise they have every right. And the second is that it's not always as simple as I'm an achiever in respect of X so I want my partner to be as well. As was pointed out upthread, the obvious example is that two very successful, ambitious high earners might understand each other better than someone who's none of those things, but not be prepared to provide the same level of support. So it would be a question of prioritising.