What do they bring to the table?

[1DAD2KIDS]

So moving on from my impending divorce I am very much challenging my once fairly tail view of love and relationships and exploring new ideas. So I am locking my heart away in a little box for a bit and trying to let my brain help me work out the future in stead.

So sould we consider when finding a future long term relationship/marriage what people bring to the table in terms of earnings, liability and capital? I will just add at this point what I may say is a bit controversial and is a thought experiment of my mine not necessarily my opinion.

So a bit of background. I was young and had a good career and feel in love with a School drop out with no qualifications. We fell in love and I married her. All the years she was in and out of jobs. She could be because I could always support her. She never showed much intrest in providing for her self or making a career for her self. She was quite happy for someone to provide for her. So I always worked my nuts of to earn even more and provide a future reflecting this lack of contribution. Not a problem we were married and would l be together for ever. But then it went wrong and then I realised the things I have worked hard for were in jeapody.

Made me think. I used to think all you need is love but now I think you listen to your brain too. Looking on OLD many profiles allude (overtly or not) looking for a man in work with a decent job. Often on dates I get the very early questions trying to suss out what I do for work and the quality of my life style. Now apologies for the next bit as it may sound like I am being a dick. But often these people I have dated earn a fair bit less, have liabbilities such as kids (I know it sounds cold but in terms of finance) and big debts and/or have little capital such as owning a property. Just to put into context I am 33 and the people I generally date are my age or older. So if women are interested in a man's standing and financial position then why should a man be interested in a woman's standing and financial? If I look at relationships from this angle should we get in a long term relationship/marriage with anyone who does not bring to the table and simular offering than us?

Ravensmum, I missed your post upthread where you said 'spare a thought for the sahp'. This is so true.

When I met my x I thought I had nothing so I thought I had nothing to lose from being in such an unequal relationship. But I lost my 'say'. I lost my good future. I had had a moderate income and a reasonable job and I had no dependents and I was young enough to do it all right, but instead I allowed him to use "reason" to argue that it was pointless for me to work because he was such a high earner and his job couldn't be jeopardised. I could see the corner I was being backed in to and it was hard to fight it. I did try. Once I told him I was getting a weekend job and he told me angrily that he would be too tired at the weekends to look after children. He has never acknowledged the sacrifice I made. He just views it as me sitting on my arse for years.

sandyy2k talking about swanning off with inheritance, that is exactly what has happened to my x. For years his own dad was so determined that their mother wouldn't see a penny. (so the apple didn't fall far from the tree) Now it looks like his fourth wife who has fallen out with her own children btw will be the beneficiary! It's all so pointless! The energy and the years he put in to begrudging his x w her share of his pension and now he goes and marries a randomer, when his xw would have left it all to their children fgs! Apparently they've all fallen out with each other.

Meanwhile, I'm denied the chance of another relationship because I'm a single parent with a low inocme job and too much res

ponsibility.

Lost opportunity is a big one. I sold my house to move in and renovate ex's which he then sold because it was a building site when I moved in and my money sorted it all out, for a tidy profit and we bought another. He still tells everyone he meets though that he had to "give me" the house he would never have had if he'd not met me.

Not to mention the £30,000 per year I didn't earn for 14 years to allow him to travel with work and shag around

In Victorian times, childhood was over by about 3 and a half. You know when children as young as 5 could be put to a job, I used to wonder what motivated them. My son aged 11 can hardly carry a cup down from his bedroom. I think it must have been hunger that motivated them. Today's kids would never be motivated to do anything unpleasant or arduous, such as hard labour.

Gl0ria the good old days 😂

newbrummie I hear you. Lost opportunity is not something tangible that men can see or measure so it's not acknowledged. I still hanker after the studio flat that I was in the early stages of buying when my X talked me out of it so that I could buy with him. Then later, he told me that he could buy more on his own than if my salary was factored in. So I ended up without a property or any rights to a joint property. I was a proper fucking eejit I really was.

Anyway, it reminds me of a human league song! I was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar when I met you. But even then I knew I'd find a much better job, even with or without you. Time passes, women progress in their careers too usually unless they are up to their eyes in childcare.

NewBrummie! Indeed! tolden dayz. Now kids think hunger is a rare medical condition that needs immediate attention! so many selection boxes there are wrappers every where and they sigh if they're asked to pick them up!!

It was like a switch flicked in me 2 years ago. I've started putting myself absolutely first, as long as the kids are feed and watered and have a roof because I've concluded that unless I take care of myself I'll be either a worry or a burden or unable to help them as adults which I feel will be of far more value to them than them escaping childcare in the holidays etc.

The moment the ink is dry on the consent order it's time to start looking after number 1 again, the kids will be fine.

Yes, it's good to see things so clearly. When I left my x (9 years ago so it's not like it's a raw wound, far from it!) I became obsessively focused on getting a house. I picked up pennies off the street nearly. I hardly bought clothes for 6 years. You know the high that some people get from gambling, I got that from saving. I have my own place now so I don't really hanker after a small studio flat I nearly bought 16 years ago but it does encapsulate the trusting mindset I had back then.

And I know what you mean about looking after yourself and the kids will be fine... They will be. My kids are doing well in school, their teeth are/will be straight thanks to me, they have a secure home now and a parent who has not once introduced them to a noo partner. So they will be fine. I need to start thinking of the 30 years ahead of me now. They will be gone in a flash. And I love them. But I need to start laying down some groundwork for the years I'll be here on my own without them.

Gloria I agree entirely.
Whilst I was still married to my ex I spoke about getting a second pt job.
This would mean working on a weekend . My ex absolutely refused point blank, refusing to look after our dcs on ' his days off'.

Unless your oh is an excellent parent then your hands are tied.

I would also emphasise that unless you do the school runs/ child care drop off and pick ups, all of which have an adverse affect on your career, then you cannot moan when it goes tits up and you have to compensate the parent who had sacrificed their career.
Having to leave work at 5 to collect your children or not being able to work weekends etc etc all prevent people from moving up the career ladder.

I'd also like to point out that helping to fit a new kitchen every 10/15 years is never the same as cooking/ cleaning and looking after your dcs.
The sheer volume of house work undertaken mainly by women is astounding.
I was doing 3 hours of housework every single day plus working whilst i was with my ex.

This didn't include gardening/ decorating or general diy or big jobs such as clearing out the garage etc.

It was merely the day to day functioning of running a house.

It also didn't include the driving several times a week of taking all 3 Dcs to various activities.

I was brought up in a home with a traditional family. Dad worked hard mum stayed home. My mum always had access to every penny my dad earned. And nothing was grudge. My dad viewed my mum's role as her job.

However it was my mum who always drummed into us girls to never ever be dependent on another human being. Always have your own money, always have a running away fund. It sounds twee but while my parents had a decent marriage she hated being trapped. There wasn't the same child care opportunities then and certainly if she had wanted to leave society would have viewed it as "she's made her bed." I don't think for a second that she would have stayed if she was unhappy, and my parents were married until my df died. However I do think that we have to open girls minds to the pitfalls of being so massively dependent on another human being to provide a roof etc. I know it's easily said, but you read thread after thread of women being effectively trapped by not being financially independent. Sorry for going so totally off thread....

Turns out the reason ex couldn't have me work weekends was cod he was shagging his ow.

Dispite all this I'm much much happier now.
I have met someone who gets me.
He had his life and I have mine and it's going great.
My first priority is me then my dcs.

My girls already have a running away fund they don't know about and won't until I die but if I ever see that they need it they shall be given it. I tell all women you must have a couple of grand tucked away. Even saving a fiver a week will give you that cushion eventually, sooner you start the better.

Absolutely true gilded cage.

I have told my dd to never give up her career.
If she has children then the childcare must be equally shared.

Her career is just as important as any future partner.

If they use a childminder then both of them will take equal responsibility for drop offs and pick ups.

I don't want her screwed over like I was.

I've also told ds gnat he gets off his arse and cooks washed and cleans for himself, it's not his partners responsibility.

I agree. I dated a divorced man for 6 months and I finished it in the end when I ended up sympathising with his xw. I never met her! but he grudged her the percentage of his pension that the judge had awarded her. She was working again but earned less than him. I pointed out to him that for roughly 8 years they'd had no childcare costs as she took that hit, but but all he saw was a chunk missing from his pension. It was a turn off. He seemed like a nice guy but that total inability to acknowledge that bringing 3 children in to the world costs and that it was not a wife who had cost him a retirement of luxury and opulence but his own three children. I tried to get through to him by saying ''is her house bigger than yours?'' Is her car better than yours? Is her pension bigger than yours?' but I couldn't get through so I ended it.

Funny reason to end it but it struck a nerve in me.

I tell my dd the same.

Never have a child with a man who is not the housework-doing type. never do more than 50% of the housework or childcare. Never give up your job.

I had a date with a man who was really keen on me.
I didn't see him again after he banged on about how the csa had crippled him for years.
No the csa is there as a safety net to support children.
I couldn't date a man who begrudged paying maintenance towards his own children.

I think if the kids are very young and the wife is taking care of them, it's fine. But once they go to school, then she should look for a job

I think the men who say this need to be prepared to take time off work / arrange and pay for the childcare that's needed for before and after school for 39 weeks do the year and and 13 weeks of school holidays plus random sick days.

And of course to do 50% of the housework and wifework.

I thought about something to day. I watched a clip that quoted some resarch that suggested that women often put other things first before their career as men often put career first. The person then when on to explain that this was a big contributing factor why men take a lot of the highest job. Basically I read into it as men are more likely to sell their souls to the company (at the expense of other things) than women. There is such a big push now to reduce that gap by encouraging women to be more like men in their attitudes to employment. Basically to encourage women to sacrifice family etc for career. Play men at their own game. Personally I wonder if we are asking the wrong question in terms of what's best for kids and family? Should we be asking women to act more like men in terms of career attitude or should we actually be asking men to be more like women in attitude? Maybe men should start putting family before career. After all how much money does someone have to make to be happy. I often wonder what is the point in earning loads of money and never seeing the kids or get much quality time with them? I threw away my career in the forces to come home to my kids every day (although ironically my pay nearly double in doing so but I didn't know that then, I would have taken a pay cut). It troubles me a little that if both parents are working their socks off and doing long hours is that best for family unless you need too to keep a roof over your head? You do hear of kids being almost solely brought up by their nannies and that to me is sad. But then of course we are back to square one regards to who brings what. Unless men and women truly learn to sacrifice a bit of career and provide both equal work in the home and equal work in employment. Of course this is not so easy to achieve as employers are not so flexible, each half may have very different incomes. I just wonder if we should be looking for more people to put career first or if we should be actually asking more people (mainly men) to put family first before career. After all if there are more people in the labour market and the more they're willing to sacrifice more for the company surely the true winner is capitalism?

Just a thought anyway, it has a few problems but just playing with it. I am perfectly aware the world is not that simple.

I was in HR and saw that day in day out. Men who were frankly less able, less qualified, less ethical but would do anything asked of them progressed and climbed the ladder. Women were constantly pulled away from the job and I mean 20 year olds with great potential arriving late to work becAuse they had to drop the boyfriend off first, not taking a job because it involved travel and the guy they'd been seeing for 6 months and treated them like shit wouldn't like it ... Their own worst enemy. So you'd end up promoting the bloke who you knew would turn up even if he only did half the job

Well thats the age old problem though. As a professional women I've always felt like I've had to be twice as good for half the thought. I think most women feel very conflicted, you want to do your best at work whilst also being there for your children. It's frankly spinning plates. The men I work with in the main don't have the same conflicts. But rather ironically they all have wives who do all that home stuff for them.

I think we really do need to really try and hammer it home to our dd that they can have expectations and can realise their potential. If women start the change men will have to step up at home. After all who will pick up the slack once most women have their own career's?

Gildedcage - in my experience nobody picks up the slack and the kids are left to flounder in some cases, it's really bloody difficult but you read burn the first wife threads all the time about how the lazy bitch will have to get a job now she's been traded in after years at home, but what about the kids who are used to having that level of support. It's really hard I think for everyone

Yeah I understand that situation is hard. I'd like to think my daughters generation isn't going to fall into that, because they won't feel like they have to give up their potential to have a relationship and a family.

You can have a career and be there for your children. You don't have to be a sahp to be a proper mum...if that's your choice then that's fine but you have to make that choice with your eyes open.

OP, if you are concerned about the financial risk in the divorce courts of your 2nd wife being a low/non-earner, you can put a pre-nup in place. That should separate the wheat from the chaff.

The Mrs earns a little a less than I do, she contributes less financially but I'm perfectly happy with the arrangement and I know we wouldn't have the comfort we do without her contributions.

She has strong work ethics and it keeps me motivated to work harder and contribute more.

The fact she works hard make her judicious with money hence I have to be aswell. This has made a massive difference compared to my life with ex which was spend spend.

I have a friend who earns as much as I do but "very obviously" envy the comfortable life we have, and the only difference is he chose to marry doll who has never worked or contributed financially and has no intention to.
They are in so much debt (jointly accrued but all in his name) he's constantly depressed! I'm confident she will leave him soon. He'd spend at least 7years cleaning the debt with no savings or house and she'd most likely find some loaded man to feed her for the foreseeable future.

It's not worth it.