What do they bring to the table?

[1DAD2KIDS]

So moving on from my impending divorce I am very much challenging my once fairly tail view of love and relationships and exploring new ideas. So I am locking my heart away in a little box for a bit and trying to let my brain help me work out the future in stead.

So sould we consider when finding a future long term relationship/marriage what people bring to the table in terms of earnings, liability and capital? I will just add at this point what I may say is a bit controversial and is a thought experiment of my mine not necessarily my opinion.

So a bit of background. I was young and had a good career and feel in love with a School drop out with no qualifications. We fell in love and I married her. All the years she was in and out of jobs. She could be because I could always support her. She never showed much intrest in providing for her self or making a career for her self. She was quite happy for someone to provide for her. So I always worked my nuts of to earn even more and provide a future reflecting this lack of contribution. Not a problem we were married and would l be together for ever. But then it went wrong and then I realised the things I have worked hard for were in jeapody.

Made me think. I used to think all you need is love but now I think you listen to your brain too. Looking on OLD many profiles allude (overtly or not) looking for a man in work with a decent job. Often on dates I get the very early questions trying to suss out what I do for work and the quality of my life style. Now apologies for the next bit as it may sound like I am being a dick. But often these people I have dated earn a fair bit less, have liabbilities such as kids (I know it sounds cold but in terms of finance) and big debts and/or have little capital such as owning a property. Just to put into context I am 33 and the people I generally date are my age or older. So if women are interested in a man's standing and financial position then why should a man be interested in a woman's standing and financial? If I look at relationships from this angle should we get in a long term relationship/marriage with anyone who does not bring to the table and simular offering than us?

Are you still looking 1Dad? Have you called time on the possible post Christmas party romance?

Even if they earn, doesn't mean they want to contribute equally. My stbxh was in the army and kept most of his salary. I shelled out for all the expenses of DS and the home.

Then he cocklodged after retirement and never offered his pension to the family pot. Wasted it all on his manchild hobbies.

When he walked he took a part time job and refuses to acknowledge the court maintenance agreements.

So even with money he was a twat.

I've always earnt more than previous partners. I don't care about that. But it's the ethic to work and the view of financial fairness that I admire.

My current DP earns less than me, but has this morality. He has a generous soul and that's what counts.

It's a mine field this life, eh? I'd admire your honesty and understand what compels you to be honest.

That's true Lemon Pledge , it's the values and morals that count, not the absolute amount of money or earning power one has, otherwise you are constantly pulling in different directions with different viewpoints

Actually I think if you are looking for a bloke with a decent life style and who is hard working or talented or whatever, it's honest to say so. At 33 I could have the luxury of guys with 'potential' and a lovely personality and kind (and these things still matter to me) at 55 I would be less keen on a lazy bummer , whatever their other attributes, I'm not materialistic but I'm definitely not into someone who expects me solely to put the effort in lifestyle wise

I've just killed my profile. For now. I was starting to lose my standards. I don't want to have to date somebody who has far less to offer than i have and I was beginning to slip and overlook obvious bad signs.

roodie anyone who knows me knows I like to test and examine ideas. Also someone who often plays devil's advocate. Most people will know me as a bit of romantic by nature with a big heart. But my old beliefs about the nature and working of true love or its existence has been thrown into question. I am very much interested in testing new ideas as I think the old way I used to see relationships and romance may have been a lie. So expect some out of character thoughts and vibes from me as I try and work out how to navigate my relationship future.

Also I am not sure if all men favour looks above anything. I have dated in my time a mixed bag of women in the looks department. But of course with regards to looks I guess we all have a range. To put a figure on it bases on looks if you were to give me a random selection my age I would probably 80-100% would be ok. Looks ain't a huge deal. When I look at my mates many of them have married really great women but a fair few I would say are looking and their wife's. So I am not convinced by this argument. Personally speaking I like a nice smile and a bit of quirkiness. Also I do like natural beauty, not a really into someone who wears lots of makeup or too bothered about their appearance. My ex wife was averagely attractive. You probably wouldn't notice her stand out from the crowd but she had a nice natural beauty that I found attractive. Although I am also interested to explore the idea of to what extent attractiveness capital.

May50 I guess I feel the same as you. I have worked my nuts of in the past. I am 33 with a good wage and two properties. I feel now I can put feet up with regards career (plus raising kids is my main focus and no where further to go put in my career). I am a single parent and I want to protect all I have worked for my children's future and their prosperity. With the divorce nearly over it made me realise that marriage make me vulnerable to losing capital that is the kids future. I have to protect what will be their's. So I guess after my ex wife I am supious of anyone who hasn't got their own house in order or who pose a huge financial liability. It goes against the old romantic view of the world. I also feel it's almost a bit taboo for men to talk about wanting a woman who is financially sound and independent. But for me I wonder if dating and equal or a superior is the only way I can protect the stable and promising future and retirement I have worked and planed for.

Aftertheraincomesthesun I agree. But if you date someone who you not consider is desirable in that way then you must accept a shelf life on that dating. Then it's only fair that they know this too. Not fair to string someone along. So personally it's either a consenting causal arrangement or a relationship with someone you think could have a good chance of working out.

Cricrichan see your point. But if that relationship breaks down then the unequalNess starts to be problematic

Ineedmorelemonpledge no that is all good and looking forward to it in the new year. But sort of all the more reason to understand the best way to plot my relationship future. As anyone who followed the thread about my future date one of things that attracts me is that she independent, has her own family life and although she is in a lesser paid role I know she also gets paid a good rate.

Lemon I agree that value and morals are key. But when you start to distrust people and your own judgement (through experience) you do wonder if it's own prudent to protect against assetal loss and I guess in my case a fannylodger.

Plus maybe I am hyper sensitive but my experience of old is that I have seen and talked to a few that seem to have a keener intrest than I would like in what I offer financially and in terms stability. Maybe it paranoia or maybe I am less nieve and better at spotting red flags.

I used to think if you love someone you be with them and care for them no matter their background and circumstances. Now I have a feeling that there is more to it and you need to look after your self and your own intrests too.

Funny, thinking about it that in some ways, at my age (47) the tables seem to be turned when it comes to being saddled with expensive children. I've dated a couple of men my age with young children - one seven, one ten. Whereas most of the women my age I know have older children who are flying the nest, or about to, men my age can still start a new family and gain a whole new load of liabilities :) While I can look forward to the kids being financially independent in the next ten years, my partner could well still be helping his children financially as he enters retirement.

I suspect that you dads still have the advantage when it comes to seeking a partner, though, compared with women the same age with the same number of children. I don't know your situation, but the dads I have met do not have the children at home with them.

True, i do that to. Play devils advocate woth myself to make sure im on course.
back later. Interesting thread imo.

My mum always used to say that you don't have to go out looking for a millionnaire, but that if you happen to end up with one it doesn't hurt.

When you're online dating you might as well go for the pick of the bunch first, why not? As long as you don't make money the sole criteria. I would like a tall, well educated man, so I just search for tall, well educated men. I usually get a message warning me that my search has returned only a few hits, but to me that is a positive thing.

My hilarious clever funny good humoured warm supportive friend coming over! She'll make it all seem like the mere learning curve it is.

What are your choices op?

As a young man who will want to date someone of a similar age, chances are that they'll have children or will be looking to have children. If they have children, then they're likely to have sacrificed their earning potential and if they don't have children but would like to, how are you going to play it? If your relationship develops and you decide to get married and have children, will you take equal responsibility of children and home?

If you're going to be so clinical about dating then I think you should look to date established GPs. They earn reasonably well and even if they go part time after having kids, they earn a decent wage. Or an accountant.

Are you well educated yourself, ravenmum?

I have a postgrad qualification but that's not really what I mean - I would like someone well educated as in able to spell his own profile and make intelligent comments, rather than well educated as in went to Eton or something :)
The last successful relationship I had from OLD was actually with a guy who dropped out of school early but was smart enough to get into a decent job requiring a reasonable level of brains.

I look at relationships from this angle should we get in a long term relationship/marriage with anyone who does not bring to the table and similar offering than us?

It depends on what you mean by similar. If I were looking for a relationship, he'd have to have a job (a decent job), but more than that, a kind and generous heart is important.

Having said that, I wouldn't have the desire to financially support a man and neither do I wish to be totally financially dependant on a man, unless he was another level of wealthy.

I think SAHM put themselves in a vulnerable position. No offence to SAHMs, but I don't want my DDs to think a woman's job is purely to be a mum and a housekeeper. I didn't go to university and study to post graduate level, to not make use of my education.

You definitely need to look after your own needs. Not at the expense of somebody elsr, but just, you need to not ignore your needs to bend over backwards and be 'needless'
I did that with my kids' dad. Must have felt so worthless.

Having spent the last 6 years with a selfish cocklodger who would not work, I would never consider dating anyone who did not work again.

I have worked hard all my life, and have a reasonable standard of living, I don't expect anyone else to provide for me of my children, but I do expect someone to provide for themselves.

It's not just women who expect someone else to foot their bill ....

I didnt go to university and even so i should not have risked my own future by stepping out of it to be useful to somebody who saw me as another mouth to feed!
You can still feather your own n3zt if u havent been to uni, especially if you arent feathering somebody else's at the expense to your own 'nest'

I think that you're entitled to protect yourself. If I was interested in finding a partner, I would prefer someone who was independent, as I am, and I also wouldn't be interested in co-habiting, and wouldn't be expecting anyone to take care of me.

I absolutely agree you need to look after your own interests (although I'm not sure the other person's assets are a good indication of whether you'll be able to do that or not). I do also agree that the criteria with which you choose a partner is totally up to you, and to ignore the things you believe are important now could lead to resentment later.

I was very very poor (income not meeting basic outgoings) and essentially jobless when I met someone on OLD, and the disparity in our incomes was so huge I had major doubts about the viability of a relationship - I thought the difference would lead to resentment. I couldn't even pay for a babysitter to go out in the evenings, we went for coffees during the day, or he paid for a babysitter so I could go out. It was awkward and horrible.

At that time he wanted to jack in his job to start his own business, and because I'd started a business myself we talked about it during some of those early dates. Three months later I helped him to launch his own business and promoted it using my marketing background. He asked me for help looking after the marketing and accounts side, which I did. Within four months the business had made nearly three times his previous annual salary, which he put down to our combined efforts.

I think what I'm saying is that I brought comparatively very very little to the relationship in financial terms. But I did bring something to the table in that I used my know-how and worked my socks off to help him, and combining our efforts paid off in a way that wouldn't had happened if we haven't been together.

No not formally. Never was much for school and my dyslexia put me off education. I do not have a dregree but do have various skills, engineering qualifications and also experiance that most dont have from my time in the forces. But education and intelligence are to separate things. I am lucky to make a very good living in a job that doesn't need qualifications but does need a special type of person. My brother is same. Was totally turned off by school. Just a few GCSEs and an electronics aprentaship. Now owns a very successful business and doing very well for himself. Same as my dad too. He hated school. He was the smartest man I knew, taught me so much and owned his own business too. All my closest friends are very intelligent people. Teachers, successful accademics, Bankers, soliders, wind farm erectors, events organisers and the top level of law enforcement. All of them them very smart and all of us from different backgrounds. I would say my education is something you can't get at school but to me is priceless.

At the moment I don't know exactly what I want and that is why I am looking at things from a different angle and asking such questions.

I guess what I would like is a equal. Someone who is intellectualy and financialy independent and equal is looking good right now. I guess I wonder now if you do need to be a little bit selfish and look after your own intrest too? Happy with a single parent. But granted it's hard to find a single parent who is in the same sort of finanical position as me unless they have likewise a well paid job or property and money from a great divorce settlement (although that would be a red flag for me). So I understand it's a limited market. Also I want no more kids and I understand most my age group would be looking to have kids soon if they didn't already have any. Plus I am not sure if I ever want to cohabit again. At the monement it don't appeal, I am liking my own space.

I married in my early 20s and expected to be married forever. So this is all unchartered territory. Just testing some ideas and wondering what other people think to my question?

It's a tricky business 1dad. I have a daughter late twenties. Never married, never had children but has been very successful workwise and owns a property with no mortgage. She is very careful who she dates as she wants to protect her equity.

I also have divorced friends of my generation (late fifties) who date but will on no account marry as they want to protect their assets for themselves and their own children.

1DAD your post has got me thinking.

I don't intend on ever having to date again and have never done OLD, I met my DP in the pub when least expecting it and we get married next year. However, to put your theory to the test hypothetically speaking, had we met on OLD and he was of the same school of thought as your OP, we probably wouldn't be where we are now.

We had both not long come out of a LTR, I had a dead end job as I had moved counties to go back home when I split up with my ex and I was on the verge of bankruptcy amongst other things.

I laid it all out on the table on our first date (with the exception of the financial matters) and he still asked me for a second date (and he didn't even get a kiss!), I eventually told him my financial woes a few weeks later, he again couldn't care less. I actually never ended up declaring bankruptcy but still had/have (quite a) bit of debt from my previous relationship.

So, from my perspective, I also wonder whether circumstances contribute to the overall feeling about someone's baggage, or whether regardless of how a person ended where they are at that point of meeting, you would write them off anyway?

As for me, my finances were in such a mess as I was working 2 jobs (a pretty decent office job and a normal weekend job) to pay a mortgage and all bills while my ex sat on his arse all day telling me he was looking for a job and was too good to claim JSA. He was in fact watching porn all day.

I was only in my dead end job for the first few weeks of our relationship and I now have a pretty decent career I am proud of, as well as more qualifications and I'm only really just starting on my chosen career path.

5 years later and we have travelled the world, have a lovely home, a beautiful daughter and, as I said earlier, we are getting married next year.

My DP earns substantially more then I do, he had a house deposit sitting in the bank waiting for him when I met him and didn't have any baggage or responsibilities, but my liabilities didn't put him off me when we met and we are now happier than we have ever been.

It does make me feel sad that had he looked down on me for being in the position I was, that neither of us would have experienced the things we have with each other or be in the position we are today.

Someone previously described it as this, which I thought summed up my feelings on it perfectly:

I don't want his money, I just want him to not need mine.

offside congratulations and I hope it all goes very well for you both. My ex wife and I would have never got together if I was applying this logical then, neither would we of found each other on old. She would not have got a look in. We met in the pub/club likewise when we were least expecting it. It was different from anyone else I had experienced in the past. She had no education, (don't mean to rude) but intellectualy we are in total different ball parks and we had very little common intrests. But there was a spark I can't describe. We had so much fun and laughter and excitement. We grew very close together very quick. I truly loved her and would have been by her side till death (as I promised) had she not left me and the kids for her far older step cousin. So you can see why for me I wonder if love is not enough? Of course I understand that a system of selection is not everything. For example unlike you my ex never had a desire to work hard and make something of her self. Very much of the school that says find a man to provide for you. This is partly why I say old attitudes of marriage were oppressive to men as well as women. Anyway my point is if I can work out a more scientific method maybe I can not make the same mistakes again. But yes your example shows that this methodology may not be floor less.

Seriously best of luck to you both. My belief in love has taken a pounding and left me very cynical. But both my parents and grandparents loved each other till death parted them. So it warms me to think that maybe some else can have that total love.

I'm not currently single but I'm with you op an awful lot more head over heart should I ever be single again!!! Financially stable, kind, shared interests, shared attitudes to life etc. I would seek what was "good" for me - someone self assured, confident and loves dogs!

Thank you 1DAD.

Having said everything I've said, I do think you do need more than love and that you both have to want the same or similar things out of life.

I think I'm lucky in having experienced what I have and I wouldn't change it if I had a chance because I wouldn't be the person I am today or appreciate the things I do.

However, what I will say, is that if I ever did find myself in a position where I had to date again, due to my past, I absolutely wouldn't put myself in a situation where another person is financially dependant on me and despite where I was when I met my DP, I always made sure I never depended on him for anything and I still don't.