Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Should my boy be talking to his baby mum that way??

212 replies

user1479224526 · 22/11/2016 02:31

My boyfriend is having REAL issues with his baby mum. They broke up when she was pregnant and it's been nothing but messy since. First no contact, then screaming and shouting, now he sees the baby monthly but with no formal agreements in place and she controls the lot.

They text each other all the time, she is either screaming and shouting at him, arranging him seeing the baby or saying how she still loves him and so desperately wants him back.

He doesn't defend his reasons for leaving. He lets her scream at him. He lets her call me all names under the sun (by ignoring it). But I looked at his phone tonight after finding last week that he'd deleted his messages from her. He was mostly ok, but at one point he said "I love you with all my heart" (as a defence to her saying she never loved him). He also said when he next saw the baby he wanted to have 1 day where they pretend to be a family. She referred to her son and him as "my boys" and he said "we are". I get that he's trying not to upset her, especially as he wants to talk to her about going to court soon, but wtf?! Apart from the fact that he's handling the baby situ all wrong, should I really put up with this? Constant messaging, him not defending himself or me, saying all the things which lead her on? I feel disrespected and like I'm being lied to, having to share him with his ex.

Do I continue to push him to do things formally and hope the messaging stops, or shall I get the hell out if he behaves like that towards her secretly?

OP posts:
QueenOfTheNaps · 23/11/2016 08:56

Your boyf tells his ex that he loves her and he wants to play happy families with her.
You excuse this behaviour when there really is no excuse at all.
I hope you take the good advice given to you on this thread and leave him, you have been naive to believe what he says.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 23/11/2016 08:57

I would think though that the "run for the hills" advice is not about dumping him and rather rather protecting yourself.

I might agree with you that he is broken and desperate and not handling it well but that does't mean you will hurt any less if he goes back to his baby and ex. You can't fix the situation, and he does seem to send some mixed messages. Only you know how far you can tolerate this.

Of course you should talk to him, it does go without saying, but from your OP it seems he says what people want him to hear.

I would decide for myself how far I can let this situation go, and what I want him to do and see how it goes. But I would be prepared to end the relationship.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 23/11/2016 10:56

I actually think the man is getting a bit of a hard time. He pays maintenance, he wants to be an involved Dad. His ex is saying he can only be involved if he is with her, so he is playing a role to placate her.

That makes him weak maybe, and deceitful, but he may feel he has no alternative.

Remember if he were a complete bastard he'd be off without a backward glance, like plenty of other men do.

StefCWS · 23/11/2016 11:06

He is playing you both, she obviously feels hope by what he is saying and is probably still very hurt that he left. You have every right to be annoyed by those messages. I think this relationship seems more bother than its worth I would leave as he sounds really confused.

ItShouldHaveBeenJingleJess · 23/11/2016 11:09

Has he described himself as 'broken' to you? Vague alarm bells there. You sound as though you are desperate to help him, and honestly, that's great, but what do you get from the relationship? You support him and get what in return?

TinaBacon · 23/11/2016 11:18

OP, what would you like to happen?

Would you like your relationship with your boyfriend to continue, with him seeing his son every weekend, for instance? Do you envisage it being possible for him ever to have a workable relationship with his ex?

What is his ex's reason for not accepting maintenance payments in a formal way?

My instinct is that there is someone else out there for you, where the relationship will be easy and relaxed, and there won't be all these issues from the start. That was the case for me anyway, once I started actively seeking a different type of man to be with from my previous 'type'. Just an idea, it shouldn't be this tortuous.

Best of luck with everything, it sounds very stressful for you and I suspect if it continues your confidence in yourself and your relationship will take a battering. Flowers

ShotsFired · 23/11/2016 11:38

DanceMeToTheEndOfLove Wed 23-Nov-16 00:04:07
I think the problem is that by describing his ex as 'baby mum' you've diminished their relationship into a casual fuck that resulted in a child. Even people who have defended the use of the term have responded accordingly, which is why there is such hostility towards him. That's the very reason why the use of language is so important. People reading on here have very little to go on other than what you/the poster provides. Once people have an impression of the people and situation involved, it is hard to change that because first impressions are so strongly made.

But aside from that, people are advising you to walk away from him, not because he's an awful man, per se, but because there is clearly unfinished business between him and the mother of his child; whatever the nature of that unfinished business. For your own sanity and self preservation, you should walk away and let him repair and establish an effective co-parenting relationship with his child's mother so that his child isn't collateral damage in an awful situation. He needs to sort this without the distraction of a new girlfriend, and you are going to end up getting hurt if he is still sending his ex messages telling her he loves her.

This. All of it, especially the bit in bold. You have my sympathy OP, you may well end up being the collateral damage(d party) through no fault of your own, but it will be temporary damage, not as lasting as if you were to try and stick it out while he sorts his shit out. Come back to him when he is sorted by all means, but don't wind yourself into this drama, because you can't add anythign to it apart form hassle (and I mean that kindly)

ItShouldHaveBeenJingleJess · 23/11/2016 11:57

shots and tina - these are fab posts. You do have my empathy, OP, even though I'm baby-mum in this scenario. I've been played, she's been played - the only one 'winning' is my ex. You don't have to give up, but boundaries need to be set - for all your sakes.

user1479224526 · 23/11/2016 13:46

Thanks for the last few posts, these seem more balanced and make it easier to consider all of my options.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 24/11/2016 00:37

TinklyLittleLaugh -
Quite often complete bastards do not disappear without trace. Many of them hang around because their interest in relationships consists of being a thorn in an ex's side, or the hope of playing off past and present partners.

Sometimes a loser will make a great show of love for a child in hopes of attracting a woman who admires that sort of affection. (Some players get a puppy for the same reason). Or he will complain about how his ex-P has treated him wrt visitation. This can elicit a lot of sympathy towards him and hostility towards the ex-P. They may end up never comparing notes about him because one hates the other so much for how badly she has treated him..

When there is a child involved and two people have to have some sort of contact as a result it makes it quite easy to play mind games with an ex - screwing with maintenance or causing problems with a visitation agreement, or making accusations against an ex based on visitation issues.

KittyWindbag · 24/11/2016 01:57

I can't believe the scorn being poured on OP for saying 'baby mum'. So you've never heard the terms 'baby mother' or ' baby father' either? There's nothing offensive about them, they literally describe the relationship some people have, i.e 'the father of my baby' but less long winded.
You don't have to use terminology if you don't like it but if it's inoffensive don't scold someone else for using it.

876TaylorMade · 24/11/2016 04:15

What would be interesting is knowing why he left and where he was the first 6 months of the baby's life. If he was so desperate to be a father he would have been around from the start, relationship or not.

He now wants to play happy families...still loves her...pays maintenance in cash...But has not gone through any formal processes...WHY?
Could it be that he actually wants to get back with her?...and is simply using you...After all, he is desperate to be a father. This is not an arrangement...If he wanted to sort things out he would have...from the day the child was born and not wait for things to deteriorate to this level where he has to emotionally blackmail her to get access to his child.

We don't know the back story...but my sympathies are with the "baby mum" in this situation. While you are both being used, no doubt...I wholeheartedly believe she is more vulnerable and he is taking full advantage of this.

You asked in your OP if you should leave...People have said leave...yet you replied saying you were hoping people would suggest "talking it over" with him...

Yes, you should leave... You would have known he had a pregnant ex... and you would have known the possible implications on your relationship.

You made your bed...you can either lie in it or move on. I'd suggest moving on ASAP!

BTW your use of language is poor... I thought this was a mother and her son and his relationship Confused

mathanxiety · 24/11/2016 05:23

Of course people have heard the term babymum/babymomma.

They're not inoffensive. They are right up there with booty call when it comes to showing respect for individual women.

There is a difference between being called the mum of someone's child and being called someone's babymum. The difference is that a babymum is someone's property - as in 'my babymum'/ 'my boy's babymum'.The woman in question is not his property.

And it wasn't a one night fling that they had. They had a relationship, and the term erases that fact.

'Babydaddy' is like 'sperm donor'. It's just as offensive as 'babymum'.

www.essence.com/2013/01/02/real-talk-can-we-please-stop-using-term-%E2%80%98baby-mama%E2%80%99

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 24/11/2016 07:22

Apologies to the OP for an irrelevant post, but I'm not keen on that article. It's anxious about the term 'offensively' conflating ex wives with former casual relationships - the term is apparently only offensive when wrongly applied, then - and being likened to the kind of woman who gets pregnant outside of a committed relationship is offensive. Hmm, not my feminism, thanks.

mathanxiety · 24/11/2016 09:11

If you're referring to the Essence article - it doesn't say what you claim it does.

'It started out being a demeaning term for a woman who has a child by a man she was not married to and where the “relationship” between the pair was just sex. It quickly evolved to a description of any unmarried woman who had a child. I’ve always hated it for erasing the idea of any commitment that may have once existed between a couple and reducing it only to functions related to the child. (For clarity, I hate “baby daddy” too, and for the same reason.)...

...No matter the current relationship status between a couple — married, divorced, committed, etc. — at some point they liked and trusted each other enough to lay down together and create a child. Women should be acknowledged with respect, if not for the former relationship, if there was one, then at least for the hard work of raising a child.'

How is this related to the OP's problem?
In short, I think if a man uses that term for the mother of his child then he has absorbed some of the gangsta culture from which the term arose, and has lost respect for women as part of his fascination with that culture. Either that or it's aspirational - he wants to be part of a culture that disrespects women. Not good news either way.

notgivingin789 · 24/11/2016 09:57

Exactly mathan I was with in a relationship with DS dad for many years and he kept on referring me to as his baby mum-- to be honest it's a term many ( well the majority) of good guys use, whether they are in a relationship or not with the mother of their children.

notgivingin789 · 24/11/2016 10:01

MsVtired Really? Well it's used around A LOT around my area and I find it very offensive! You may accept it, but I certainty won't!

notgivingin789 · 24/11/2016 10:04

*hood

Putting that aside OP. I think you need to cut your losses and allow your boyfriend to establish a co-parenting relationship with the mother of his child, because highly likely his sleeping with her and with you as well.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 24/11/2016 10:13

But tbh 'mother of my baby' is what the relationship is quite often - if anything, 'ex' would be the reductive version as it's focuses on the now-irrelevant relationship (if there was one) between the man and woman. 'Baby mother' captures the ongoing relationship.

And I maintain that the 'offence' only exists if you first of all accept that a woman who chooses to have casual sex (and therefore runs the risk of pregnancy outside of a relationship or even 'commitment') is something derogatory.

I know any number of people - men and women - who have parented effectively together in a setup which both parties (and others around them) have been quite content to describe as a 'baby mother' 'baby father' arrangement. I don't think it's inescapably sexist; even if I were to accept that it has inescapable sexist roots (and I don't, particularly), I still wouldn't agree that all who ever use it can't do so with respect for the mother as an independent person who is competent to raise a child and decide her own sexual adventures.

EnriqueTheRingBearingLizard · 24/11/2016 11:05

I know you say you love him OP but I don't think it's for you to push him in any way with his relationship with either his child or the child's mother.
It's a concern that you felt you should or could read his messages.

Reading your opening post over again, it's unhealthy. The whole break up, shouting, screaming, manipulation and control, is a warning to you of how this man conducts relationships. He's obviously showing himself to you as a caring and aggrieved party, but now you have evidence of his own manipulations and his attitude to your relationship so far as she's concerned (not defending you at all and allowing you to be called names)
He's minimizing you.

By the way, I think calling him 'my boy' in your title is what mislead some posters considering it's a site predominantly, although not exclusively, populated by parents. I thought it was going to be a thread about your son's situation with an ex girlfriend, but of course, that was soon sorted with your actual post - that's just a comment, not a criticism.

user1479224526 · 24/11/2016 13:01

Thanks all. Seeing as there has been so much offense caused by my poor understanding of the meanings of phrases and people have felt the need to call me up on it, suggesting that I am being misogynistic, derogatory, reductionist or whatever else has been suggested, it might be worth pointing out some of the assumptions and derogatory phrases that have also been used. I also want to give you the full story because I feel as though the "man" has had some unfair assumptions thrown on him, which has skewed the advice you have given.

GoddessOfSmallThings - suggested the man/boyfriend was a "philandering manchild" or a "gangsta". If I had labelled the ex-girlfriend anything remotely similar I probably would have been hung.

ManAnxiety - used the phrase "dump him" (often used in playgrounds) before expressing surprising that I was nearly 30. They also used the phrase "gangsta". In a later post also put this man/boyfriend/DP in the same category as "complete bastards", "players" and "a loser".

JenBehavingBadly - probably offended me the most. Complained about me saying "baby mum" and "boy" and then went on to call me "kid". Reducing me to that of a child, rather than the loving, supportive girlfriend that I am trying to be.

I have also seen "hood" come up a few times, suggesting that my language is used by "hood boys".

For the record, for those of you who take the side of the ex immediately and assume the man is a bastard. Some men are bastards. Some women are also bastards. This ex girlfriend, of course upset that the relationship had ended, broke contact with the father of her child and refused to let him have any access. She actually said to him "you are nothing but a sperm donor to me" (she said this to his face, not in a mumsnet thread). She blocked his entire family, changed her number, changed her email address, and moved house. Her friends sent abusive messages to the father of the child telling him he was the scum of the earth, just a sperm donor, oh just endless "offensive" comments (FAR more offensive than baby mum). For the record, they were in a relationship for 2 years which had been on the rocks for 6 months, with talks of breaking up. She missed 3 pills and fell pregnant at around the same time the relationship was likely to end. Who knows if this was intentional, but she shouldn't have been all that surprised when he said he didn't want to spend the rest of his life with her but he was going to help her to raise the child.

I am also regularly called "scumbag", "homewrecker", "slut", "slapper" and all other names, just for having a relationship with the man. I am not directly responsible for any of this mess, I cautiously fell in love with a man who as far as I could see, was spending every moment of his spare time trying to find a way to contact this woman in order to establish a relationship, support her, support the child and try to find a way to move forward. For those of you questioning why I fell in love with him in the first place - I am responsible for my own decisions and I was fully aware that this was not going to be easy.

The baby was born and was in hospital for 2 weeks, he was not informed. Once he found out through Facebook that his son had arrived, he tried to go to a solicitor, they said he needed SOME form of contact details to get things started - he had none. He then spent a month trying to contact every one of her friends to get some form of contact method and not one of them would provide. Once the baby was 2 months old, she got back in touch with him, mainly to tell him that he will never be a father, never meet his son and he was nothing but a sperm donor. He was distraught. He arranged a meeting with a mediator (because he had her phone number now), and on the day of his initial appointment, his ex offered him the chance to meet the baby, if he promised to give her £300 in cash. He cancelled his meeting and went to see the baby, which was also on the advice of the mediator (in a just-this-once fashion). She didn't actually bring the baby to the meeting much to his upset, but they did have a semi-useful conversation.

Since then, the ex has been dangling this baby like a carrot in front of his face. She sends him pictures of her ex (and abusive) boyfriend holding his son. She tells him he will never see his son again because she is moving back to poland (Where she is from) the following week. The following week comes, it was a lie. Then she says she is moving to the other side of the UK. The following week it is a lie. She has made it very difficult for him to start court proceedings formally because she threatens to leave the country, and then 4 days later promises to put his name on the birth certificate. Then 4 days later she takes it all back.

Yes, he should have started court proceedings the second he found out the child was born. No, he shouldn't have stayed in an extremely unhappy relationship purely for the sake of the child (because it would have been awful for all 3 of them). Yes, he should have been stronger and not listened to the lies she told him, but, he was a desperate man and she was offering him ways of moving forward without going to court.

The last 2 months (he has only known the child for 4 months, and only for 3 hours a month which is NOT enough but it is all she will allow), he has been so racked with guilt put on him by her, and now evidently because he knows he isn't handling this well, that he has simply been saying whatever keeps her happy in the hope that she wont leave the country, she wont let her abusive ex-boyfriend take the role of his father and he'll continue to build a relationship with his son. He also hangs on to her regular promises of putting his name on the birth certificate/giving him PR. Only this week has it all slapped him extremely hard in the face and realised that this is never going to work long term. He has been stuck thinking about the short term only.

So thats the full story. What I see is a man who made a morally difficult decision to leave her in the first place but has been trying for over a year now to put things right, albeit not handling it well. I also see a woman so heartbroken that she is denying her son the right to his father, a perfectly stable, loving and attentive father, because it is too difficult for her to let him have any control over this. She has been using her son to punish her ex boyfriend for leaving her.

I think everyone has fucked up in this situation. No-one is faultless. But, I think people sometimes need to give the "man" a bit more faith in the first place and not assume he is some form of gangsta, or from the hood, or automatically assume he is enjoying playing two women, or assume he is simply trying to get his leg over. Not all men are the same, just like not all "mother of children" are "babymums".

Fathers have rights too, unfortunately not enough. I question any woman who is willing to deny her child the right to a loving father, for her own emotional interest. She has been doing that for a year and it seems is set to continue doing that.

I regret ever starting this thread. Due to obliviously used terminology which is offensive to some people, and because I didn't explain the background fully, people immediately jumped to the conclusion that he is a complete bastard, I am some brainless teenager and the ex girlfriend is an angel who couldn't possibly do any wrongdoing because she is the one raising the child.

This is a long post, I know, but I wanted to put some of the irony in this entire thread to bed. You accused me of making a judgment on someone (even though I was oblivious so therefore I didn't), when many of you had also made judgements yourselves, and expressed them in the most righteous way. I've had to take a long hard look in the mirror this week, and I think some of you should too.

OP posts:
notgivingin789 · 24/11/2016 13:11

OP when I meant that the language is used by hood boys, I didn't mean you perse, it's just that I find that it's mainly used by those men. The phrase really grates me and I did over look your post and just saw that word, so I apologise.

Inthenick · 24/11/2016 13:29

Fathers unfortunately have very few rights in reality OP. So mothers can make it very very difficult for them if they are so inclined. Sounds like she is so inclined.

I hope he gets some decent access to his child. He will unfortunately never be free from his ex.

ShoopyShoopyDoopDoop · 24/11/2016 17:55

People drew the conclusion that he was a bastard, [aspirational] gangsta, manchild, 'hood boy' and that you are young or stupid, or whatever precisely because of the language you chose to use, OP.

You created all of it.

You might have found the responses to be different and more helpful if you'd chosen to use language that isn't so negative in its origins or connotations.

And for those trying to defend the terminology. The only people I have ever encountered in real life who have regarded it as positive, or at least neutral, language have been precisely the people that everyone assumed the OP and her boyfriend are. Which doesn't really help your argument.

user1479224526 · 24/11/2016 18:44

I called them by names considered to be offensive by some people, so it was assumed that I was 'young and stupid'. 'Young and stupid' people must only associate themselves with gangstas, boys from the hood or bastards. Therefore he is one of those. I created that?! This chain of judgmental assumptions about our entire backgrounds, just because I've never heard anyone be offended by the words before?

I don't think anyone is defending the language btw. They are defending the sheer judgments being made about people because of their use of language. Just because you have only ever encountered those sorts of people, it doesn't make your experience a national fact.

OP posts: