Sh*t...my marriage could collapse AND I could fall out with family over this

[LionsNtigersNbearsOHMY]

I've been on here once before ages ago regarding this matter. I can't remember my former ID for this. I've had a name change since.

2 years ago, we bought a 4 bedroom house. We have 3 young kids ranging from teen years to baby. The verbal agreement was that my mother, who lives in the States, would sell up and move in with us giving us a proportion of the proceeds from the sale of her bungalow to help us pay down our mortgage and allow us all to stay in this house where she'd be looked after until her death. The idea is to never have to put her in a home. We made a commitment and over the years, mom's stays with us have gotten longer and longer. This last time, she stayed one year.

It's not easy, but it's not terrible either. We get along very well, husband especially loves mom, possibly more than me because I get the brunt of the carer stuff. Her mobility is reduced and she is 80 and in not such good health, so this is not easy, but she's not completely immobile yet and can still bathe herself and walk up and down the stairs. She's a warm, loving person but never, ever does anything for herself. Her hobby is me. I find this draining at times, but she's always been this way. I knew what I was taking on when we offered her to live with us. We did not make this decision lightly.

The thing is, in order for this to work in the house where we live, we need a proportion of mom's money from her house sale. She agreed to this, giving my brother a smaller proportion so that he has 'something'. This was discussed and agreed between mom and me/hubby two years ago. She has never discussed it much since. She went home to the states to stay with my brother 4 weeks ago and rang me the other day to say she's coming back in July. We're not ready to have her back. But basically, the long and short of it is, my brother and his wife- who have been living a marvellous champagne lifestyle (they are older with grown kids- this is his second wife, married two years)- are broke, skint, and now have to downsize into a flat and send my mother back here to stay with us (we so needed the breather after having her here so long and we anticipated she'd go back to stay with my brother for several months. That's how it's been the past 5 years.

My husband's stance is, no she can't come back until she deals with real life. She can't keep coming back and forth, living out a suitcase while everyone supports her financially. She needs to go home and decide what to do with the house she hasn't slept in for over 5 years. She just goes back and forth between my brother's in the States and my home here in the UK. She has left her house to rot. But in the past year my brother has been frantically doing up her house, without involving me in any aspect. I have no idea what's happened to mom's contents. She won't discuss her house with me at all other than to say, my brother is dealing with everything. He has now written to me to say that he is broke and downsizing. He can't have mom stay with him anymore and he's sending her back to me and renting her house out. He says she can live with us and live off the rent from her home.

Financially, this doesn't work for us because the idea was that we'd be able to pay down our house with mom's help and in return, support and house her until her death. She wouldn't need to pay for anything extra while living with us. She would not live like a tenant, paying a portion of the bills or anything. Life stuff would be on us. My husband has become terribly pushy about mom's situation. Basically, we have to sell if she doesn't come in on this house with us financially. And although she agreed to this verbally, I did warn my husband that while my brother did not agree to this, my mom would wax and wane, which is totally what's happened. Basically, she wants to make me happy and my brother happy. The long and short of it is that she keeps saying, "Yes, I'll invest with you" but has made no motion to do so. She does come and stay but hasn't shown us that she wants to 'live' here, if that makes sense. My brother does not want her to sell and give us any proceeds. He wants her to rent out her property and live with us but feels we should be able to support her without proceeds from her house. We would not have bought this house if we did not think she was going to invest with us. We wanted to buy a smaller house on the same road and that was the house we were going to be gunning for. But when mom said she would live with us and offer a lump sum to help with this, we made sure we secured this house. Everything would be put into place to protect her investment. We would make sure that if anything happened to my husband or to me or if we divorced, mom's investment would be protected.

Me? I don't want any of it anymore. It's all so messy. On the one hand, I feel like we're just sniffing around my mother's money and on the other hand, I see my hubby's point. She did say she'd like to sell her house and give us some not all of her proceeds in order to allow us to keep this house where she too can live. The bottom line is, we bought this house thinking she would go in with us on it because she wanted to. Now she just doesn't want to talk about it. She wants to come and stay but not discuss her future at all. The whole year she was here, we couldn't talk about it. We will have to sell and downsize because we can't reasonably sustain this large property without her help. This leaves her a bit stranded. But at the same time, it will make my brother happy because he did not- and he made this clear- not mom investing with us. He did not explain why or what his issues were, no matter how many email exchanges we've had. He just has made it clear that he doesn't want her investing with us. I don't know what he thinks is best for mom.

Mom is now very cagey about what she wants. I said to my husband that it's like we're communicating in Braille. We're all very civilised and nice to each other. Not one harsh word has been spoken. But behind each other's backs I am certain we all feel frustrated. Mom wants to live with us but I don't think she wants to invest with us. I would LOVE to house my mom for free. I hate needing money from her to make this work, I simply hate thus situation. It's become entirely about money.

My brother has taken over the refurbishment of her house completely and he ignores any emails I write discussing her home or her plans. He'll respond to my jokey emails where we discuss superficial stuff. But with regards to mom's finances or future, the wall goes up. And as I said, mom wants to live with us without discussing anything financial.

I feel like I'm the bad guy here. We have not pushed mom to sell. We have not pushed her to make a decision. But it's sort of crunch time for us. We have to decide how to manage a property we bought thinking she was coming in with us on it. I've told her not to come in July. I've told her we need to decide the way forward with our house. The possibility of selling is very real. As of April 2016, my husband will have a £15,000 income drop as well. So this came as a shock only two weeks ago.

Please tell me if I am unreasonable. I cannot see the forest for the trees and I need some honest advice and opinions, even if I come out looking bad.

My husband is angry. My brother's emails are becoming curt. And I feel like I'm just trying to avoid a huge family bust up. My mom is footloose and fancy free. I don't think she's given anything much thought. And I feel a bit angry with her for this. It's all about "Where will I go now? I want to avoid the California summer. I think I'll come back to England." But she's not understanding that she's dealing with children who have their own worries and need to make long-term plans with or without her on board. Thank you in advance.

Looks like a whole lot is going on behind your back and yet you're the one who's been nominated as carer by your brother.

My parents are leaving their house to my brother because he has special needs. I have a house - why would I deny my brother a roof over his head?

This is different. Please don't confuse being a loving daughter with being used and - ultimately - used up.

Honestly OP you need to get over there and see what's up. What's he doing to the house that it's 'unliveable'? Why does he want to get your mum out the the country so quick? It sounds to me like he wants to sell it ASAP.

If you're not bothered about money going to your brother, that's fine, but what about your mum? Where is she going to live if he makes off with the cash or a portion of it from the sale?

You'll have to downsize, you won't have room for her, amd you won't have enough to buy her a flat here either.

I know this has been mentioned before but I can't see if you've responded to it: is there any way that you could get yourself over to California to see them both and decide on the next steps?

I think you need to see for yourself exactly what your brother's situation is and exactly what he's been doing to your mother's house (this sounds quite dodgy to me). Perhaps being away from your husband and your house will clear your head a bit and help you have a more honest discussion?

MASSIVE x-posting there!

You have to discuss these things. He won't. He just gets very angry. It's difficult.

God I feel for you. Talk about stuck between a rock and a hard place. You can't even make a proposal to your mum because your husband won't even discuss it with YOU.

Regardless of whether it is a conscious decision by your mum not to put her money into your family home, or your brother is being manipulative or she is just genuinely old and confused the real crux of the matter is that regardless of all the options, it is not in your best interest that she returns for such an extended stay.

You need to ask yourself if you want to remain married and what steps you need to facilitate that. Being a full time carer for your mum does not sound like it is working for you particularly when it appears that she has the means to pay for assistance?

If your mum wasn't coming back would you stay as a SAHM or go out to work ? ie - is there an opportunity to improve the family finances and hold onto the house?

In your shoes I would bite the bullet now and call in a few estate agents for a valuation asap. It costs nothing and at least you can establish what your home is worth and get a feel for how quickly it will sell.

You may find that while your DH really wants to hang onto his dream house, that he is less grumpy and more reasonable when all the financial pressure / millstone if you like disappear from around his neck. I'd be utterly stressed out of my mind if I was the sole breadwinner and my income was dropping while we were committed up to the eyeballs.

Is there a neighbour of your Mum's that you could call that could go and peer through the windows or is perhaps still a keyholder?

Your mum is in her 80's and would be considered vulnerable by most. It's a fairly straightforward thing to simply say, I'm a bit worried about Mum's property. My brother says that while she has been away he's made alterations and that it's not fit for her to move into at present, however he is due to move to a smaller home shortly. Would you mind checking it for me and email me some photos if possible to establish whether it's habitable.

For all you and your mum know, he's already sublet it.

Or you could email him and tell him you want him to Skype you from your Mum's house on the weekend and give you a walking tour.

Is that trust still in place though?

Your brother, I think is at the heart of the problem.

Getting the neighbour to have a look occurred to me, but honestly OP just needs to go and have a look for herself.

If there's a tenant in there they may be out, if the workmen are out then the neighbour won't be able to see what's going on. It may be inconclusive.

The trip wouldn't be wasted and she can talk to her brother and mother face to face the same time, and insist on a decision about her mother's future.

go out there & see them, see the house & have the nasty talk once & for all.
not easy with the children, but essential I would say

You so sound so completely reasonable about all of this, it's awful the other parties involved have put you in such a shitty situation

That being said I do think you could make things much much simpler if you stop trying to please everyone and think about what you want/need (and you're dc of course)

If it were me I would...

1. sell up and downsize, it seems almost inevitable that you will have to at some point so making it a choice and a priority seems sensible
2. tell your mother that as the plans you had have changed you will no longer be able to accommodate her for more than a few weeks at a time. If she had wanted to go through with the original agreement she would have done by now, it's clearly not what she wants and you can't force her. On the other hand it's completely completely unreasonable that she expects you to house her so much (a year!!!) when she has her own home and you have young children
3. tell your brother that no, she cannot come in July and if he has been renovating her house he will have to ensure it is liveable for her as circumstances have changed and you can no longer have her living with you and are going to be downsizing
4. and most importantly... Not feel any guilt at all, because you are not the bad guy here. You have tried to do something nice and it has backfired. Now you are going to think of your own future and more importantly you are going to put your young children first. If you're DH and brother are not happy they can come up with thier own solutions

I just wanted to emphasise, as others have, that you honestly cannot look after anyone if you get run into the ground. To be carer it is essential that you look after yourself.

Nobody WANTS to go into a home, but it is unfair of your mother to stipulate this. I wouldn't want to go into a home, but as I have an only child I have told her to put me in one if I get dementia or any other difficult health condition. I love my dd too much to think of her being run into the ground.

But it would cost thousands to fly the OP and her three kids to SanFrancisco during school holidays. doesn't sound like her DH is going to step up

Even a return trip for the OP and the baby is going to be costly as she will have to stay somewhere and it doesn't sound like her brother is going to be very welcoming.

Her mum is presumably with him so a lengthy late night [for the OP] skype call is probably the most realistic kicking off point with all three of them in the virtual room. Key is to be prepared with notes so you don't get side tracked

It's honestly a mess and not ideal at all. I suspect it would have even best if no discussion of money had ever occurred and houses had not been bought based upon money that may or may not materialise. If your mum buys into your house, moves to you and (God Forbid) dies within a few months, your poor brother will have been really unfairly treated as regards a small inheritance. With two children, this arrangement was never going to work fairly. Of course friction will be caused. People should only offer to look after relatives if they can afford to, if money is forthcoming then all well and good but basing a care relationship on money being paid to a family member just seems like a blueprint for disaster.
I think you should call the whole thing off and sell up whilst your family is still just about functional. Sorry if that sounds harsh bit I really do think you are going to end up losing your brother/mother/husband over this as things stand.

I'm with AnImpala 100%!

Of course we want to look after beloved aged parents but in the same way it was your mother's choice to give birth to you and your brother and raise you and love you it was your right to give birth to your own children and they have to be your top priority.

I think your mum has behaved thoughtlessly at best by promising something she hasn't followed through, as a house purchase is a huge thing. On the plus side has it by chance risen in value like so much property has? as could you just sell it and start again independently without being too grieved? How many bedrooms do you have and need? (Only read 3 pages so sorry if missed this)

I think these discussions sound so sad as through no fault of yours you're being forced to think of your mum's financial impact on you instead of just giving wholehearted help when you can. I also question how much she's asking of you as my mum would (rightly or wrongly) put us first and be careful never to be any burden- although in practice she wouldn't feel like one even if she tried!

I think it's delicate if she's not automatically looking after your interests too as I would expect. But I would insist on financial independence and just help her out of goodness with firm boundaries if she has a tendency to put you out of pocket which I don't understand

my elderly mother, has only ever looked out for her own best interests.
(I hope this is not the norm.) Your Mum is probably just trying to please both of you, however, making a serious mess of it.

He seems determined to get her back here next month. I feel she should stick around to get her house sorted and decide what she really wants to do

And you're absolutely right. While others aren't being straight with you, it's essential to prioritize yourself and the children (and your DH?) over those who are clearly using manipulation, at least until things are clearer

I can see the point about flying over, but wouldn't personally risk it; once there you'd probably find just as much reluctance to discuss matters as you're getting now. Do you have a key to mum's house, or would you be relying on your your brother for access? Potentially risky, that ...

On a more positive note, though, that Skype idea sounds really good

Op I feel so sorry for you, you really are 'piggy in the middle'.
I wonder if your brother is being underhand and shafting you with regards to the house.
Perhaps it's time to ask yourself what you want? You've admitted yourself you don't really want the caring responsibility of your mum. Totally reasonable as that alone is a massive commitment and you have dc's to care for.
Your brother sounds like he wants to have his cake and eat it.
I hope you find a resolution that is best for you

Given that your mum hasn't come up with the money that was agreed and she does theoretically have a home of her own to live in, you don't 'have' to accept her living with you at any time. She is not so infirm that she cannot cope. If it was my brother, I would very pleasantly explain that your mother cannot return to stay with you so soon because you are arranging to sell your home and downsize, as a result of her decision not to go in together on the larger property as had been agreed. If your brother protests that there is no money for her to continue living with him, I would be inclined to say that your mother has plenty of cash that she could access if she chose to; it's now her responsibility to house herself.

That's why everything is so messy; it's because none of you have any boundaries!

On the subject of the original plan to effectively charge your mum 100k to live with you for the rest of her life...I can understand why your brother doesn't like it. It does leave a bitter taste. Unless it was 100% what she wanted and was pushing for, I'm afraid I don't think it's morally justified. Plenty of people put their parents up for nothing and benefit not at all, my own parents being a case in point (and no, they didn't have a big house; my grandparents lived in the dining room).

I wasn't suggesting she took the whole family, she only needs to take the toddler. She should be able to do the airfare for about a grand.

If her brother wasn't in dire financial straits there'd be no reason to suspect him, but she stands to lose a lot more than a grand if her brother is up to no good. Her mother stands to lose her house or part of the value. Which may prevent her from buying a flat here.

The OP also need to know what's happened to the contents. She needs to know if her brother has done anything legally which givens him discretion over her mother's affairs.

None of this can be done by a neighbour or on Skype.

Gosh I really feel for you OP.

I think the main thing you need to get your head around is that some blunt conversations need to be had and harsh truths need to be told. It sounds like you really do know, deep down, what's going on with your DH, DB and DM. You also know that you are the one carrying the can for everyone else to get what they want / feel entitled to / feel capable of. But you're just too nice to be the one to say anything, and seeing as that suits everyone else down to the ground you're feeling this enormous pressure.

It's all on you now. You are the one in the middle, you are the one who needs to push back, and you are the only one motivated to and capable of making it happen.

Also your brother may think 'they have afforded the mortgage for this long, so why can't they continue'

I am wondering that too.........

I was going to say that if the money seems to be the major issue, couldn't you release an amount from her California house but it seems your brother may have got there first... There must be some way of establishing what your mother has in savings etc and whether your brother has dipped into those and what the precise status is with the house. Do you have any evidence he is doing it up/it is unliveable?

The second issue - arguably the greater one - is that you are putting everyone's needs above your own. If your mother is to come to you, regardless of whether it is paid for or not, then there has to be a lowering of her expectations of what you will do for her while she is still capable of doing it herself, and a sharing of duties with your husband and, to some extent, your children.

Out of all of you, I think your H has probably been the most transparent. Intentionally or unintentionally, your mother is using her asset as leverage, she gets free accommodation and considerable support from you and a home makeover from her son.

I think both your mother and brother are taking you and the financial, practical and emotional support you provide for granted and expect you to look after her, like you did your father. As much as you love your mother and want to care for her, the emotional and financial cost in doing so is very high and neither of you have been realistic or honest about it.

It's time for a plan, a realistic one with costed alternatives. Your mother may well be entitled to health care under the NHS but what about social care provided by the council?

As grabby as your H may appear to be, I do think the complex dynamics between you, your mother and brother (loyalty, obligation, entitlement, guilt etc) has brought about a situation that has left you exhausted and most increasingly resentful.

Don't let the emotional blind you to the practical.

QUiteLIkely My Husband's salary dropped 10k last year and this year, by April 2016 will drop a further 16K. So that's what's going on with our worries. We haven't been floating along, not really. And it will be two years in September. Our financial woes have hit us in the past 18 months really.
Isetan what you have written is greatly appreciated. I suppose in a way, this is why I've remained mostly supportive of hubby's stance. I have my qualms with him and his stance for sure, but it is his transparency that has been admirable (too strong a word maybe but you know what I mean). I appreciate his transparency and the fact that he has stuck to his points.

I wrote this email to my brother today as a response to his and his woes/concerns. It was a draft and I ran it by my husband who went into a tirade and lashed out at me. We are now not speaking. I am beginning to wish I could go out there and perhaps clear my head... or would it do my head in further. Going out there is difficult but something I should strongly consider. I feel like putting DH, DB, and DM in a box in storage for a few years. I am tired of this. It's been going on too long and nothing's been said of any significance. Here is the email, which I won't send since DH is extremely unsupportive of what I have written.

"...We will know by the beginning of August if we are selling for certain. And then we can make a long-term plan for mom.

Short-term:

Mom needs to stay and manage her property in XXXX, its contents (some of which are very valuable bits and some are priceless? sentimental).

I have some personal stuff at mom’s. I know where it all is and what it all is. I think this warrants me getting a flight home to be more hands-on OR having a Skype tour with you and mom in the house. The latter would be more affordable, to be honest. It really is necessary and should happen. I can then arrange and pay for shipment of my personal belongings which are only valuable to me, but again important for my kids to have.

If mom wants to live over here, and this is our sincere wish, then she has to close up shop in America correctly and meticulously, with all of us involved and talking about it openly. She needs to have open discussions with us about her wants and needs both financially and emotionally, her debts, her income, her concerns, her healthcare requirements. She needs to tell us what she has and what she wants to do with it and how she wants to spend these twilight years of her life. It’s what people do and she mustn’t see us as being grabby, greedy, or pushy. We need to have these talks so that we’re not left with an enormous mess, stress, bitterness, and resentment years down the road.

I just want to know what she can do with what she has so that she can live out the rest of her years serenely without any elephants in any of our living rooms. Please, show her this email if you wish to. Maybe it’s the ice breaker she needs. She mustn’t feel bullied by us. She will feel pressured. But it is decision time and she needs to just choose what is right for her, truly right for her and how she wishes to finance her next move.

Does mom wish to sell, rent, buy into an assisted living scheme in California, or hang onto an asset that is hers by buying a small property near one of us? She has options and she has to think about them and just be open and honest about what she wants.

Before mom books tickets and packs a bag, please have her discuss options with us. Maybe she can sit down in front of a PC and approach these thoughts I’ve laid out and respond to both of us. And we must accept mom’s wishes and not deter her from them and if they seem unreasonable, we should discuss this togetherwith her. If she can just discuss how she would like to execute her plan, this would be ideal. We must be as supportive as possible. The longer she postpones making a concrete plan, the harder it will be on all of us. This is the reality and we must face this head on alongside mom."