Panorama, BBC1 now. Domestic violence

[AnyFuckerForAMincePie]

Scary stuff.

simply sabotage.

Women have to fight to prove their worth, Men have to be proven to be a risk...

this is the reality, you need to check the processes in place with CS and Courts/Cafcass. This is the reality of court/custody/CS.

Men will automatically get contact, women will not.

I hear your grievance, we can all hear your personal grievance and resistence to accepting the intrinsic nature of DV.

You have been rude, and paronising, and adopted all manner of side-stepping tactics, blocking and ignoring tactics to force your point home regardless of anything anyone says that clearly refute the figures that you quote.

So its clear that you will not accept any other outcome regardless of reasoned arguments that those posting have patiently repeated for your understandings.

Watching my friend have to fight, really fight to stop her ex-h, who has been convicted of both child sexual abuse and dv, getting contact with the children has really made me doubt an awful lot of what F4J, and the like, say.

Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them.

I have a friend who lost custody of her son to her violent husband.

She'd had to flee to a refuge to get away from him, that's how dangerous he was.

But he had the house and the car and the job, so being a violent abusive man who had beat up the mother of his child made him a better parent than her.

Apparently.

Yazbulls, you just have to look at how men and women are viewed as parents. The bar is set very low for men to be good parents. They just have to engage with their children on a sporadic basis. Doing this in a fun and lively manner gives them extra status.

Or you can look at the thousands of posts on here to see the hoops women have to jump through in order to get their abusive and controlling exes engaging with their children.

you will find countless of course cases mirror image of those posted above, everywhere you look. Where courts daily expose DC to risks from dangerous criminals that have escaped charge, men are continually given the benefit of the doubt, even where seriously dangerous crimes are involved and there is proof, and where women have fled everything in their lives to save theirs and their children's lives. They no longer have anything in their lives, no homes, no family, no money, no friends, complete isolation, but they are alive,

that is all.

Then the perps track down the women, find them, traumatise them all by dragging them through court, and the DC (this is recognised as abuse by CAFCASS - EA) - only to hand over the DC to the FW, even where DC are terrified of their FW father and dont want to see him. The courts see the behaviour of the FW, using the DC as tools to coerce the mother to do as she's told, and yet still hand them over.

Meanwhile the FWs blame the women for their behaviour, abuse the court system, abuse the DC, blame alchohol, blame everything else, except themselves.

They ALL have 'jolly good reasons for attacking women [in whatever form]'

The abusive men blaming women for their behaviour was so apparent from the panorama too - the man said to her "you got me arrested again" and the PO said "no she didn't!" Which I thought was excellent - but of course, he'll be sitting in prison -still blaming her fro 'sending' him to prison. And of course, the police response was excellent here - we know it's not always that good, unfortunately.

It defies belief how he could stand there arguing with her in front of the police, arguing with the police, and then crying about how he loved her - when she was stood there with those injuries. It was like he couldn't see the black eyes, the swollen head and cheeks. It was unbelievable.

Abusive men buy toys and outtings for their kids and are manipulative 'fun daddy'.

This makes them bad fathers.

Take for example the child who is taken on a fun drive out after an evening meal out with daddy and driven around buying chocolates and having all sorts of fun till way past their bedtime, on a school day, refusing to bring them home until the mother does as she's told, after they were due home hours before and will be worried sick. Where does a child go with that?

This is not any old hostage taking, this is fun daddy coercing mummy hostage taking with lashings of headfuck for all

oh, by the way, did I say, its all legal and they know it... well it was, i'm not so sure now now that EA is recognised criminally also

the common approach by the courts/CAFCASS etc, is that where a child states clearly they do not want to see daddy, this will be attributed to DM coaching the child to say that, and where a child says they are scared of daddy, this will be because they are protecting the mother.

You see, and daddy abuser still has free reign?? You see, how it is still all the mothers fault somehow?

I hope Panorama has made significant inroads into challenging this crap.

I work in MH. Worked with victims of domestic violence and abusive behaviour but worked more with perpetrators (worked in forensic and prison MH health).

Most of the men I worked with were young and I remember being shocked when liasing with domestic violence workers in the community who told me they had women on their books in their 60s and even 70s. I naively thought that abuse would 'burn out' as the men became pensioners. I hate myself now for thinking that and this programme highlights that issue.

All of my experience and all of my knowledge means fuck all though when it comes to my friend. Her partner put her in hospital, she was subject to MARAC, placed in a refuge etc.

He went to prison for his most brutal attack on her and the Judge declared it as nothing less than 'torture'. She sought him out a while after he was released and no longer on probation. I had a thread on here about it under another NN.

I'm pretty sure the violence has started again but she covers up for him.

She is genuinely the most physically beautiful woman I have ever known, breathtakingly so. And beautiful inside too. I try so hard to understand her. She was free of him but actively sought him out to go back.

I'm just waiting for the call to tell me he's killed her and I am so, so sad.

What Bertie said, "mine robbed me of my chance to be a good mother" at Tue 09-Dec-14 21:38:45 actually made me cry. I won't talk about it but what he did to me by way of trying to rip away my relationship with son is unforgivable. The death threats and EA are nothing beside the pure hate I will always feel for him for that alone. In truth I will always somewhat loathe myself, for all my current understanding of the how and why of it all, for not getting away soooo much sooner. For not fighting him hard enough. For wishing he would beat me, then others would see what I felt inside.

But I couldn't accept that fighting was right. Fighting about a beloved child wasn’t right. Lawyers who were happy to write whatever they were told weren’t right. Judge who looked over glasses to say “no-one removes the child from the family home” without hearing a word I said was not right. But he liked the claim to Methodism that my ex had put in and was chosen for this. Yes, court was moved to suit what ex paid lawyers. It all confirmed my invisibility.

Couldn't get my head around the whole fight thing or that control/takeover of my being had been going on for so long that I danced perfectly to its tune and thought I was utterly selfish and at fault for wanting out (“You can go but the baby stays with me” scenario.)

So many things he said were huge red flags and I just gritted my teeth and internalized. My upbringing trained me perfectly for a relationship where it would have taken physical violence for me to question alleged normality. It's really, really shit, isn't it?

That programme will haunt me. How she was so destroyed and rose almost accidentally above it, not even really getting it in that hospital but finally accepting a new authority over his. When she said about "his rules" ... heartbreaking. I so know about that.

Those women are amazing. This is a personal (and rambling) post rather than a globally political one. Though I think everyone’s journey, dark or light, is part of a bigger picture.

I think anyone who survives/escapes a war zone with any honour at all is amazing. It’s tragic that people are at war with each other in so many ways and I pray it’s part of a journey to somewhere much better in each unique heart.

It's over 13 years since I left, and I howled crying to this. Nearly broke my hand hitting the floor over that bastard.

That poor poor woman.

I'm still sat here crying. I can't believe that was such a trigger. I went to turn it off because I couldn't continue but there was only 5 mins left.

I'm glad it was that horrific though. I hope it got through to a few if the idiots that say 'why do you not just leave'?

Tipsy

tipsy , it's the worst part of it, isn't it? It's what I feel the most pain and guilt over and what I can never forgive him for. He tried so hard to disrupt the mother-child bond. Ironic considering his own background.

Thank you both, you darling souls bertie and bee... having a tearful moment/day or two but will be back on form shortly

sass ... indeed .... "why don't you just leave" suddenly becomes the most ridiculous question on earth ...

I always think - though of course I wish I'd never gone through it at all. But if I had to go through it, I can at least make something good out of that and try to help others who have been or are about to go through it. Really, I'd love to work in some way dealing with/helping DV victims or in some kind of relationship education programme for young girls. And boys, come to think of it.

A plea to the women in any way blaming themselves, this is what's making me soooo soo sad, you cannot operate or function properly under this. Its impossible to do so, please please do not blame yourselves for not getting out sooner, or not retaliating more, or whatever. He perpetrated this

it is only his fault. us not being able to mother properly was only ever his fault, and being in a war zone is right, when you are in that survival mode you work differently you work instinctively and you are attached limpet like to your abuser, the longer you stay the harder to leave. I have been through the same knowing what my DC went through and are still trying to recover from, but this was definitely his fault.

He did this and we tried to protect the only ways we could at the time. We also know the danger of being out of it, whether consciously or not, whether its overtly threatened or subtley 'known'... leaving can be the most dangerous time.

Its not something to 'just do', or face glibly as you stroll out the door, and the people that can't understand the staying need to know this.. you cannot just walk free - this is the exact point.

Only each woman on her own can know if /when she can do this.

Stockholm Syndrome has a devastating effect, and the reason that even after being out for some time him facing consequences broke my heart!!! i kknow right! mad, and I know it, but it still did, I broke down.

Its part of the ties that bind.

Im watching this now on BBC 2 Its harrowing

Ask Basil your shocking comment above reminded me of this.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_matters/2256610-Malicious-Communications

The thing that really triggered me was the little girl, listening at the top of the stairs, and hiding. It breaks my heart, totally, and I don't know that I will forgive myself for that. That could have been my little girl.

The other interesting point was the point about the abuser being the more dependent one in the relationship. I have worked hard in therapy, and because of the abuse I suffered as a child, and the expectation of my birth family, that I be the "parent", the responsible one, the one whose fault it all is, I can see my role repeated in the two abusive marriages I ended up in.

Ironically, and I am reluctant to discuss others here so forgive the vague nature, but one of those abusers is now in therapy, and one of the big issues is having always being treated like a child.

I can see that dynamic VERY clearly now, and could see it in the way the man on the programme, expected her to pack his bag...like some kind of surrogate mother, as he was unable (in his mind at least) to do it for himself. Mothers ARE omnipotent to dependent babies aren't they? Never ill, never injured. A whole other can of worms in the dynamic of abusive relationships. It's so complex, and incredibly relevant in a feminist context.

It is such a shame that the level of debate has, ONCE AGAIN, been lowered to the old "but what about women who abuse".

We all know that. It surely deserves it's OWN thread, rather than piggy backing something else all the while?

Oh Queen yes, absolutely, and my DC too, all listening andhiding, and often crying and calling out, begging it to stop, we have to live with the fact that an abusive man did that to our DC and just do everything we can to do the opposite!

Again though, you didn't wish that, it isn't what you would have wanted or done, so none of it is your fault. He put you all in this awful situation and, don't please, don't forget he put YOU in it too, not just them.

well, i don't think we should really bother to worry about that 'women who abuse argument', there are bigger fish to fry with male abusers.

Even if you are ready and willing to take on the role of mother to a dependent 'DH', does it mean he has to accept it though?

A non-abusive man is going to say to you, are you sure you 'want' to do all this? I feel weird not having any part of the household chores, etc. Or, the other way around, when you find yourself packing HIS bag and you decide to say, why the hell am I doing this and you can pack it, that he would just pack it, and not make you feel bad for not packing it for him right?

That if you, as you might have done in the past, asked for him to shoulder at least some responsibility? did he make you feel bad for asking and that you had to continue doing it for fear you would be blamed...

Those are the lines to be thinking along. There are very many abused girls who grow up into adult relationships that change them, changed by the decent man they live with who doesn't feel comfortable with the arrangement that his partner doesn't be a partner, but more of a slave to him and the DC. Its not just about traditional roles though, its speaking badly of the DM in front of the DC, not respecting boundaries for the DC and always wrecking DC's sleep with shouting and so on...

you are not responsible for that!

The point was that it was subconscious...I was not aware of how ingrained that role had become, as it had deeply defined me for the whole of my life.

You are correct of course. It was never my "fault" that I was put in those situations, I can still hear the pleas of my ds to "stop shouting". It haunts me. Shame it didn't/doesn't haunt his father eh?

But it was my responsibility to find out why I tolerated it and had normalised it, which I have now done. As it continues to be THEIR responsibility to own their own behaviour, but so few ever do.

yes, I too wish the cries of our DC haunted him every night, or my cries, or the look of fear in our eyes and splashed across our faces, but he couldn't hear them at the time, batted them away like annoying flies, and I am doing, here and now, doing the stuff of being there, making it better [hopefully!] trying to make life ok after the war.

it was never right we were treated this way, or our fault, but this is how children survive their childhoods, its natural to normalise it and get on and survive, the fallout happens after its over, if its allowed to be over, most don't let go so it can't be over.