Panorama, BBC1 now. Domestic violence

[AnyFuckerForAMincePie]

Scary stuff.

Strange statement Yaz especially considering all thats been said that directly conflicts with it?

But violence against women is misogyny. It is not just random violence - it is perpetrated on the grounds that women will be cowed by violence or the threat or of violence. It is a mechanism used by certain men to obtain dominance and control over women and their children. Women really have little defence against a man who is violent in a relationship. She cannot fight him back - she cannot overpower him. She lives in fear of her life. Why can you not understand this very simple fact?

sugarcoatedthorns Thu 11-Dec-14 00:04:33
Twinklestein Wed 10-Dec-14 22:33:57

To not understand this is to misunderstand the nature of abuse, which is why most of it (the vast majority) is males abusing women/children.

We all know that the powerless person in a relationship is not always a woman, we don't need anyone to explain that to us.

We also know that mostly it is because of the way our society is organised.

People who deny that are either very ill-informed or they have an anti-woman agenda.

It really is that simple

I think it's a shame this thread got derailed with a largely academic argument about gender bias. DV is a deadly problem, thousands of people are affected, and some of the people - male and female '- who probably ought to watch the programme because they'd get something useful out of it could be put off doing so.

I don't think it's quite right to characterise the gender argument as "academic". There's nothing academic about it IMO, it's the basic stuff of the issue. DV is a gendered crime, there's really nothing esoteric or academic or complex about that.

It's people who pretend that it isn't, who make it ivory tower, theoretical and "academic" because they remove the debate from the reality of what is actually happening on the ground which is that overwhelmingly men perpetrate and women are victims of this crime.

Acknowledging that doesn't in any way minimise the seriousness of all DV whoever the perp and whoever the victim, but to actually pretend that we don't need to acknowledge its gendered nature and therefore be in a position to tackle it, is a deliberate decision to be ineffective in fighting it IMO.

This is so depressing. Read this analysis of the statistics.
kareningalasmith.com/2013/04/29/this-thing-about-male-victims/
Of course there will be some male victims but it is overwhelmingly a male crime. And as others have said, any victim will be able to relate to the programme, so what is the problem with exploring it from the perspective of the most common by far scenario. Ugh.

Some will always refuse to hear this perhaps?

Some will never want to see the true nature of DV, the cold hard calculated approach, the consequences for women's behaviour, that its the woman's fault.

The calculated approach that was shown on panorama. The rage that he demonstrated against her, that had been planned. This is one of the hardest things to grapple with when you've been abused, and doesn't exist in the same prevalence in women, and is purely designed to control and intimidate. Manufactured anger, and use of language to try to intimidate, denegrate, undermine and coerce.

I think the numbers quoted for women are only the iceberg tip, from the knowledge I have of others unreported situations.

Another is the bad father. All the women I have come across have work to, even put themselves in the firing line, in order to keep contact going for their DC with the FWex. Far from them being the 'bitches that 'alienate' them from their [FW] doting dads'.

Women have to fight to prove their worth, Men have to be proven to be a risk, this is the current court system and many women are forced through courts in fear of their lives causing further major trauma to an alread traumatised woman. This is the daily reality of abuser's tactics.

Men will get contact with DC except in very extreme cases, but all cases start the same way.

To try and deflect the argument about domestic abuse onto the 'men are victims too debate' as TWO posters of the many who have posted have managed to derail the debate - thereby avoiding any discussion of the actual nature of abuse - not academic - deliberate derailing.

"Women have to fight to prove their worth, Men have to be proven to be a risk"

Ain't that the truth

"Women have to fight to prove their worth, Men have to be proven to be a risk"
As well as the 'men, too' the other three stock phrases used to block debate, blame victims and put women and children at risk are 'there are always two sides to every story' 'codependency' and 'you can always leave'

" don't think it's quite right to characterise the gender argument as "academic". "

In the context of this thread... which has got derailed talking about the gender bias of a TV programme.... I think it is academic. Here we have a powerful and thought-provoking documentary which addresses a very serious problem that affects thousands of women. MN is largely a female-oriented website populated by many women affected by domestic abuse of all forms. Instead of the thread being a platform for information, discussion and advice it has turned into some kind of academic debate that because no men were featured in the programme it was therefore a worthless exercise.

It absolutely isn't an 'academic argument' about the gendered nature of violence. It is real. And to gloss over it and disproportionally focus on it being a neutral argument ignores women's lived experiences and the basis of the power structures at play.

Men use violence to control and oppress women. Men generally don't fear women. They don't think women are going to rape them on the way home at night. They don't think women are going to sexually harass them in the street or touch them up on the tube. In fact, it probably doesn't even cross their minds.

The 'you can always leave' or 'why didn't she leave him?' is a very subtle and pernicious form of victim blaming. I thought it was addressed very well on the Panorama by the criminologist: she can't leave, she fears she will be killed if she leaves.

He will already have complete control over her life - he will already have done all the things on the list - isolate her, make her dependent on him, destroy her confidence, her self esteem, control her via her children. And if she tries to leave, she fears he will kill her.

Hi CogitOIOIO

You are using a neutral word "academic" Are you being too polite? Do you think that the points argued by the 2 contrarian posters were done for academic completeness?

All I saw all sorts of goalpost moving and strawmen. I think it was disingenuous.

It makes me sad.

Sorry Cogito x-post. Yes I agree. But this is what always happens. You can't have a conversation about the violence women experience without being deferential to men who suffer abuse.

Talking about male violence against women specifically is vital because it underpins so much of society's power imbalance between the sexes.

I'm using the word 'academic' in the sense of it not being of practical relevance, purely theoretical interest. i.e. IMHO it is of theoretical interest that men can be victims of domestic abuse but I don't think it's of practical relevance to the typical MN user and I don't think it detracted from the information in the documentary

CogitOIOIO

I think that you have to be careful not to minimise the style of argument used. It was done to derail the debate IMO, and to decouple DV and EA from gender despite the evidence and the implications. It was sabotage IMO. The the posters weren't there for an academic argument, they did not engage with the points made to counter them.
.
I think it is important to mention this.

Of course I know it was sabotage.

I know you know! I just want the readers to know.

Anonnynonny Thu 11-Dec-14 09:42:36
arthriticfingers Thu 11-Dec-14 09:54:07
and others previously

"Women have to fight to prove their worth, Men have to be proven to be a risk"

Really?

Yes really.

Evidenced by?

Yazbulls if you're interested, you can do your own research about this. Have a look at Women's Aid and Refuge websites and give them a call about research connected with this - they've got access to masses and I'm sure they'd be willing to signpost you to the right places; read Helena Kennedy on how courts deal with DV and rape and keep an eye on how the media deal with family annihilation, domestic violence and child contact issues where violence and abuse is a factor.