Panorama, BBC1 now. Domestic violence

[AnyFuckerForAMincePie]

Scary stuff.

arthriticfingers I agree.

....and if you are suggesting that homelessness is an indicator of abuse....which gender makes up by far the greatest percentage of homeless people?

To be quite honest the fact that it is men is irrelevant, no-one should be homeless, no-one should suffer abuse, and abuse is as much a social issue as homelessness!

Yazz I made no assumptions about you at all. I specifically said 'I don't know about Yazz'.

I've no idea what your experiences are or your agenda. I spoke in general terms about all the online discussion I have ever had about dv. It's very difficult to discuss this subject online without someone coming along to say 'why are you only talking about women' indeed MN is the only place where it does not happen, this thread excluded obviously.

To argue a case for end all dv isn't really an position it's simply stating the bleedin' obvious.

arthriticfingers I guess you do what you we doing albeit slowly,

Women's aid, shelters, better police practices, better conviction rates, better counselling, earlier intervention, places like this (MN), literature to shine a torch onto the area, education campaigns, stuff like the panorama episode in the media, steps to reduce objectification of women.

I am fairly new to thinking about this issue in depth so I am sure others will have more suggestions.

The reason every thread on domestic abuse gets derailed by the 'What about the men' brigade is that the resources they want to take away are those of support for the victim.
This is just another classic example of what Lundy means when he describes abusers deflecting an argument so that is no longer about the issue they do not wish to be discussed.

Exactly.

Personally I think there needs to be relationship lessons at school along with sex education.

So many girls get into abusive relationships as teenagers and then see that as the norm. Indeed the biggest rise in dv according to recent figures in the Guardian is in the 16-25 age group.

I think children need to learn about abusive behaviour and the issues around victims of abuse so they can identify patterns and tools to deal with it. That will apply also as much to bullying at school and in the workplace.

What you describe is all well and good dadwood but the fact is that funding to dv charities has been massively cut. Legal aid for victims of dv has been made harder to access. There are plans afoot to require women's refuges to admit men on the grounds of equality, and plans to try to force women to use refuges in their own areas rather than elsewhere, which rather the negates the purpose of it.

Argh, my grammar! Please excuse me. When what I say doesn't make sense, please just take the most charitable interpretation!

Twinklestein Thanks for adding to my list.

but the fact is that funding to dv charities has been massively cut short termism!

you're arguments are not holding up Yaz quite clearly

Legal aid is supposed to be available for victims of DV, it isn't.

This has to be made a gender issue, men are different from women and women terrified of men will not go into any refuges with men in them, this once again forces women to be subjected to men when in highly vulnerable situations.

There are already appalling practices going on in refuges around the country that are run by men. The whole point being women have developed severe emotional harm at men's hands and need to be stowed safely away from male contact. Many cannot go out at all.

Male abusers will make it their business to know where refuges are because they will not allow women to hide from them, its simply not allowed, they have to stay near and continue to intimidate which they know will prevent the woman recovering. Paedo's hang out where there are kids. They are all predators and those claiming to be 'abused' [men] will get themselves admitted and kill these women. Its very much like courses that CAFCASS ask courts to 'order' women to attend, along with perpetrating men, its totally blanking the issue and highly dangerous practice.

if they want to increase the male on women murder rates, then allow men into women's refuges, and make women go on courses with perpetrators, and try to deny that this is a gender issue.

Women simply have to go out of the area, to another part of the country where they really are safe.

Number of women victims last year 1.2 million
Number of men prosecuted 55,000.

Number of male victims 700 ,000
Number of women prosecuted 3000.
(Source: Office of Official Statistics 2013/14)

survivor looks like a lot of men made up some shit about their partner to the police from that. I worked out the percentages. Don't know what it looks like to you, of course. But that is because none of the terms are defined - starting with victim - victim of what exactly? prosecuted for what? what was the conviction rate? for what crime.
No idea what you are trying to say

Just watched this.

My H died. When he was in hospital I went out to a friends one evening, I never went out. I clearly remember sitting on her sofa, she gave me tea and I rambled on and on; he's going to die, he's going to die I'm going to be free.

I kept repeating myself as I sat there whilst she just listened calmly. I was in a really strange state with the horror of his imminent death and the feeling I was being released.

After his funeral back at the house, I spent more time in his home office scrabbling through stuff until someone gently moved me back into the other rooms where family and friends were. I didn't really know what I was I doing.

I cried a lot, and people thought it was because of grief, but I was crying from the relief that he couldn't come back, though I dreamt about him being back for a couple of years afterwards.

The first six months after he died I have very little recollection of

It's not a gender issue: it's a societal and cultural issue. All abuse is wrong, whether it's male on female, female on male, male on male, or female on female. As a survivor who works with other (aspiring) survivors, the most striking fact is that women who have the courage to report and escape have the most fantastic support network through Women's Aid, and through the Family Law system. Men do not. The Male support services routinely screen "victims" to see if they are actually perpetrators pretending to be victims: Women's support services do not. Female perpetrators have weapons to use with Children's Services and the Courts that men do not possess - namely false allegations of sexual abuse. I know of far too many cases where men have been suspended from their jobs, prevented from seeing their children - who have themselves been put through the trauma of child abuse investigations - and ostracised in their communities because of malicious allegations that are (eventually) shown to be false - by which time it is too late, as there is NO legal redress available (unless you can afford to go to the High Court to sue for defamation of character) and the children have been living with mum and not seeing dad for upwards of six months - and we all know how CafCass and the Courts refuse to mess with the "status quo" , regardless of how that has come about. All the research shows that children do best when their parents are able to share them amicably, not use them as pawns in a game of institutional abuse. A survey of recently separated parents conducted for Relate last year showed that 85% of fathers wanted their ex-partners to have an equal role in bringing up their child or children: the figure for women was 15%. Why is that? We rightly stigmatise fathers who have no interest in seeing their children, or in helping to pay for their living costs, but we also seem to be wrongly preventing good and loving fathers from seeing their children, whilst also making them pay for not seeing them. Again, I know of far too many cases where there is 50/50 Shared Residence, but because mum gets the Child Benefit she also therefore gets any Tax Credits AND makes dad pay CSA - how is that right, when care is being shared, and mum is already earning more than dad and also has a new partner, also earning?? There is NO PROVISION in the benefits system for Shared Residence: the sooner the government makes Child Benefit able to be split proportionally between parents the better - it would stop SO MANY ridiculous legal fights. The system for dealing with domestic abuse, separation, and child welfare is not remotely fit for purpose, and the main casualties are the children - the children that CafCass and the Courts are supposed to be protecting. And isn't it revealing how the perpetrators (male or female) find it so easy to move on to their next victim, whilst the victims (male or female) struggle with even the idea of a new relationship? The best thing that CafCass and the Courts could do is de-gender all statements and reports [ make it "Parent A" and Parent B" - then we might see some genuinely impartial decisions.

I agree Arth what are you trying to say survivor it is ignoring what has already been stated more than just a few times on here already.

Do you still think those stats mean something?

Very very sad davejudgement. Did you find the programme helpful? or difficult to watch? Pleased that the DV is being brought to society and more high profile?

I resonated with Dawn, though much less violence. Police were called once and he was arrested, I too had black eyes. He shouted past police 'is this what you want?'

It's not a gender issue: its a gender issue because of all the reasons already given

it's a societal and cultural issue [in terms of womens power in relationships and society].

All abuse is wrong, whether it's male on female, female on male, male on male, or female on female. nobody is saying this isn't true.

As a survivor who works with other (aspiring) survivors, the most striking fact is that women who have the courage to report and escape have the most fantastic support network through Women's Aid, and through the Family Law system. Men do not. This is categorically untrue - men are using 'WOMENSAID' money [dwindling funds] put aside to support women, are being used to support men?!?!

The Male support services routinely screen "victims" to see if they are actually perpetrators pretending to be victims: Why would you have a problem with this?

Female perpetrators have weapons to use with Children's Services and the Courts that men do not possess - namely false allegations of sexual abuse What??? now where is this coming from? The [vast minority] of female perpetrators have weapons?? You don't think that men claim this? Are you reading any of the very valuable contributions on here?

I know of far too many cases where men have been suspended from their jobs, prevented from seeing their children - who have themselves been put through the trauma of child abuse investigations - and ostracised in their communities because of malicious allegations that are (eventually) shown to be false - by which time it is too late, as there is NO legal redress available (unless you can afford to go to the High Court to sue for defamation of character) and the children have been living with mum and not seeing dad for upwards of six months - and we all know how CafCass and the Courts refuse to mess with the "status quo" , regardless of how that has come about. All the research shows that children do best when their parents are able to share them amicably, not use them as pawns in a game of institutional abuse. Its a sad fact but the male perp has his strongest 'weapon' in the poor children, and everyone who works in the abuse services/courts knows this, or should do by now, the children are the primary target of ownership. They pursue women through court, forcing them to face the perp, its classic abuse through courts, including the poor children. So therefore is it any surprise that
A survey of recently separated parents conducted for Relate last year showed that 85% of fathers wanted their ex-partners to have an equal role in bringing up their child or children: the figure for women was 15%. Why is that? We rightly stigmatise fathers who have no interest in seeing their children, or in helping to pay for their living costs, but we also seem to be wrongly preventing good and loving fathers from seeing their children, whilst also making them pay for not seeing them. Again, I know of far too many cases where there is 50/50 Shared Residence, but because mum gets the Child Benefit she also therefore gets any Tax Credits AND makes dad pay CSA - how is that right, when care is being shared, and mum is already earning more than dad and also has a new partner, also earning?

There is NO PROVISION in the benefits system for Shared Residence: the sooner the government makes Child Benefit able to be split proportionally between parents the better - it would stop SO MANY ridiculous legal fights.

This is not true, plus children struggle more trying to live in two separate homes.

The system for dealing with domestic abuse, separation, and child welfare is not remotely fit for purpose, and the main casualties are the children - the children that CafCass and the Courts are supposed to be protecting. This is true that the casualties are the women and the children
Were you aware that there is an extensive list of hoops that a woman has to jump through in order to have custody of her own DC, and yet none of these exist for men? The system is intrinsically flawed in the favour of men. Men, even the most abusive ones will rarely have contact removed from them, whereas women far more commonly have their DC removed from them and do not get immediate access. With women they have to prove that they are fit, whereas for men, it has to be proved that they are unfit.

And isn't it revealing how the perpetrators (male or female) find it so easy to move on to their next victim, whilst the victims (male or female) struggle with even the idea of a new relationship? The best thing that CafCass and the Courts could do is de-gender all statements and reports [ make it "Parent A" and Parent B" - then we might see some genuinely impartial decisions.

Yes it is revealing, but men remain the perps in the main and have specific ways, different to women, of behaving violently towards women and children so its very important in abuse to know which gender you are dealing with, this is the whole point.

The statistics show how few perpetrators are brought to justice: they also show that female perpetrators are 10 times less likely to be successfully prosecuted than male perpetrators. This has nothing to do with "a lot of men made up some shit about their partner to the police", sorry Arth: these are CRIME statistics, not false allegation statistics. The false allegation statistics clearly show that women have a near monopoly of those! As I have previously pointed out, the false allegation of sexual abuse against the man is almost expected (and encouraged by unscrupulous lawyers) now in contested Family hearings. Nor does it have anything to do with the levels of violence involved. It has to do, unfortunately, with ingrained gender bias in the system: we are fighting against institutionalised racism and sexism (when it applies to women...) - why are we not fighting for equal treatment by the police and the Courts for ALL victims of DV. regardless of gender? This SHOULD NOT BE a gender issue!

I don't think much about it these days , it seems like another life I once had - it is nearly five years since he died.

I do read and sometimes comment on abuse threads though because I understand them.

When your abuser dies, it totally frees you , you never have to look over your shoulder or ever deal with them again. I do struggle with remorse that I feel glad that he died

I would imagine that the way you speak means that you have been accused of SA?

and that is notoriously difficult for a woman to prove in court, as is any claim against a man, regardless of whether the perp has perpetrated the crime. This is known and continually fought to improve upon, but as yet still failing badly. Most women of abuse situations only report not even a tenth of the crimes against them.

Can you imagine what the figures would be if they reported all the events? On average there are something like 35 DV incidents before a woman reports them.

Women are left with very few resources to protect their position. We are talking here about abused women and children? Do you want to use our discussion here about protecting the current and future women and children as an opportunity to derail about men and attack women?

On the women's threads that I have been privileged to be a part of one of the main things that women regret is how hard they worked to facilitate the DC relationships with their FW of a father!! A far cry from what you are saying (and thats not saying that women don't try to stop contact, but in the main... why the hell would they frankly?)

Oh dear sugarcoatedthorns....I don't know what world you're living in, but it certainly isn't the real one. Maybe you should come to one of our group sessions with male victims. Again, this SHOULD NOT BE a gender issue!

your information about SA convictions and false allegations is unfounded.

This is not the case at all. Mostly women are too scared to bring such things to light or face what has happened, and this is treating the whole issue extremely insensitively.

... it is also verging on the extremely personal circumstances of the posters here, rather than a decent and helpful discussion.

Its getting to sound quite personally veangeful.

You are rude survivor and on the impression I have from you so far I wouldn't be seen dead near your 'survivor group'

Shouting it at me doesn't make it not a gender issue.. .You can shout it as loud as you like it changes nothing.

nice patronising tone too. Very mature discussion. Why are you here particularly? to be rude and patronising, and more?

survivor147

As a survivor who works with other (aspiring) survivors, the most striking fact is that women who have the courage to report and escape have the most fantastic support network through Women's Aid, and through the Family Law system. Men do not.

Sorry what?? There's Mankind, dvmen.co.uk, Hidden Hurt, Respect, Men's Advice Line... Which obviously you know as you work with survivors.

The Male support services routinely screen "victims" to see if they are actually perpetrators pretending to be victims: Women's support services do not.

That's not actually true. But insofar as men are screened it is because so many abusive men pretend to be victims, it's such a common trick that unfortunately some cases do have to be checked out.

did you watch the ted talks about how non-abusive men abhore the behaviour of abusive men and believe it to be a gender issue?