Panorama, BBC1 now. Domestic violence

[AnyFuckerForAMincePie]

Scary stuff.

I quoted the stats earlier which are from the ONS. A staggering 45% of female murder victims are killed by partners or ex partners. The same only applies to 4% of male murder victims. So that equals 10 -1. 35% of male murder victims are killed by acquaintances.... if there was Panorama documentary about that I'd expect it to principally focus on men.

I don't think a blind eye was turned to victims of a particular gender here because that assumes malice. It was a 30 minute documentary and it has sparked a lot of discussion about the dynamics of abusive relationships in general and non-violent 'coercive control' relationships in particular. A man in a violent or coercive control relationship watching the programme would be able to see the parallels.

This sets out very clearly where the pernicious idea that women are perpetrators of domestic abuse in equal numbers with men comes from.
The statistics used to 'support' this claim come from 'raw data' - data which has not been analysed for meaning (and therefore has very little meaning) - on 'single incident' reports to the police - regardless of the type - or even truth - of the incident.
'Abuse' is simply defined as a report to the police.
Most if not all female victims of abuse will have been 'reported' to or threatened with report some kind of authority often the police.
But no - 2 men a week are not killed by their partners.
Saying men are victims, too deflects from the argument about abuse, and the basic, underlying fallacies in the arguments detract from the abuse itself - which is about power, and the victim (male or female or child) feeling supported.
This is the first and last time I am going to say this (actually, it probably isn't, but never mind). The so-called 'defenders' of men are doing no-one - except abusers - any favours.

Another aspect to consider with regard to the figures on male victims of da is that abusive men frequently claim that they are the ones being abused. Equally, if a da victim defends herself or lashes out against her violent partner, he may well claim that she is physically abusive to him.

It's quite common when a woman reports her partner for da to police, for him to make a counter claim of assault, which the police are then obliged to investigate, thus holding up the investigation into his behaviour and intimidating the victim into the bargain.

ANY programme discussing and attempting to understand the dynamics of DV and begin to stop the bloody unhelpful 'why don't they leave then?' question for either gender is worthwhile.

Abuse is abuse and is wrong no matter who perpetrates it or who suffers it.

And yes, the female DV victim is much maligned. This Panorama programme is one of the very few that is NOT making us look like lowlife idiots. There was another programme a few months ago where the development of an abusive relationship showed the beginning, middle and gruesome true life ending of a the life of a beautiful young mother. It was a refreshing change

Prior to this, it appeared that all DV victims were often northern, poor, drunk, obese, usually thick and camera cut aways showed police officers exasperated at the on a loop 'Becos I luv him' cries from the victim. there was no room for sympathy, and no victim would have willingly identified with the the portrayal of the victim. It was all so flaming Jeremy Kyle.

Therefore, ANY programme that shows the victim of DV as a victim not an idiot, showing the police supporting them and believing them will help ALL victims of domestic violence, no matter their gender is good and IS a massive step forward. It is however the tip of the iceberg.

No blind eye should be turned to any victim of violence. Domestic or otherwise.

Any discussion is a step forward, to get DV on the agenda and out of the shadows IS an advance. It makes sense to start with the majority to allow the minority to realise it's OK to open up and disclose.

You are coming across as being extremely patronising Yazbulls and seem to offer nothing in return other than to pick holes in anything said here and attempt to goad. I'm not seeing what you are actually offering to the thread or the DV debate.

I am not quite sure how suggesting that this is a social issue, and any resolution to it is undermined by it being gender tagged, is being patronising or goading.

The link I posted earlier was to an article by Erin Pizzey who founded the first women's refuge, are you suggesting her views are patronising?

The ultimate aim should be to eliminate DA and DV against everyone, be they men, women or children.....and that will not happen if one or the other gender are ignored.

What I am offering this thread is some degree of balance.

Are you a male victim of domestic abuse Yazbulls? Are you close to someone who is?

Thanks for your concern. If there is any EA in my sorry semblance of a relationship it is of the walking on eggshells variety as h is short tempered / has been very critical in the past /withholds affection (though now I think he no longer has any feelings of care towards me at all, in fact he often reacts in an irritated way) and is very difficult to talk to about any "ishoos" as he becomes immediately defensive and gets angry.... quite a litany then . I think I am part of the dynamic too however as I do not know how to communicate with him either and will often retreat into silence and distance when I feel offended by how he has spoken to me. It's a mess basically.

Found this re. emotional abuse and I think it really describes what people might call low grade abuse but actually isn't (low grade) as in the effects are nefarious. You start to feel like half a person and have no self confidence.

(My thanks was to cogito).

i agree the program does open the lid on DV ,but have to agree with Yaz in the fact that there was no men in it does make it seem all onesided.
DV Will affect 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men in their lifetime
Leads to, on average, two women being murdered each week and 30 men per year
so by my simple maths that makes 3:1 ratio not 10:1 as you say CogitOIOIO

FFS will people read the link I posted above on the statistics - and what they don't mean - which is anything much!!!!

You're communicating here quite eloquently and with clarity. I doubt there is any problem with your communication and every problem with the person choosing to ignore you. You're right, in that there is no such thing as low grade abuse. There is either abuse or there is no abuse.... If you watch the programme (and I'd recommend you at least give it a try) please pay attention to the flip chart in the support group meeting and the things itemised on it that outline the way in which an abusive person exerts 'coercive control'

Isolation
Exhaustion
Threats
Trivial demands (I would call this 'pettiness')
Distorted perspectives
Displays of power
Humiliation/degradation
Occasional indulgences (... 'being nice', buying gifts, romantic gestures)

The programme points out that it is also a list of methods used to force submission in Communist prison camps.

Sorry CogitOIOIO whilst I do not want to comment directly on my own situation, I can confirm that I know victims of DA/DV from both genders.

Do you think Yazbulls, that if those people watched that programme, the male victims would find nothing to identify with and no useful information?

Arthritic no stats dont mean anything really but avoiding one part and focussing on just the other is a problem....it should all be lumped together and fought by all.DV is an abhorrent crime whichever way you look at it.

Of course it should be fought on all fronts and on behalf of everyone. It's silly to suggest, on the strength of one documentary and a few comments here, that male victims are ignored. I've personally seen threads started here by male victims of abuse and the response has been noting but supportive.

This was a 30 minute programme that - let's be really honest - centred around a significant amount of on-the-spot police body-camera footage that had sensational shock value. I'm sure if there had been police footage of a husband beaten black and blue by a disgusting old wife, they'd have used it.

CogitOIOIO, yes I am sure male victims could find something in the program to identify with, the power and control, coercive and manipulative behaviour, and violence, but they could well have been left with the impression that society only considers these things to happen to women, making them even less likely to report the abuse they have suffered.

You cannot address DV and EA without admitting that the abusers are mostly men. It is a gender problem.

It's mostly men who are doing the abusing, and it's encoded in our society with it's current victim blaming narratives that it's a women's issue. It is primarily a men's issue, and the implications to society are deep.

Shifting the blame, so to speak, onto a bogey-person who has no gender minimises the work that men have to do to counter the culture of abuse, it minimises the gap between men's and women's experience in the world.

For those men who are being abused by women, they can identify by reversing the roles in the Panorama episode. Not hard to do.

CogitOIOIO if they had wanted to find the footage you suggested they could have done so....but they did not!

How could they have done so?

Dadwood in saying it is a gender problem you are discounting 30%+ of victims and also 30%+ of the perpetrators which is not a good thing as that is a significant number of people.

You're communicating here quite eloquently and with clarity. Thanks cogito (sorry, seem to be missing point currently being discussed on this thread).

Jodphers29

I'm saying you can't fix the problem without addressing the societal context.

You'll never fix it by saying "DV is baaad" You need to tackle the the sector which contains the most abusers, you got to start by educating the men.

If you are succesful in this, the whole problem will be unlocked and the benefits will automatically go to all who are suffering the abuse, whether men or women.

Surely many of the men who experience domestic abuse are the victims of other men ie same sex partners? I don't accept that for every abused man there is a female abuser.

But in return MorrisZapp is every female victim a victim of a male abuser.
dadwood i agree that people need educating but surely everyone needs educating about it.
I am a female perpetrator and abused my partner for 3 years.Having now come to terms with what i have done i am trying to make everyone realise that they could become a victim.

Incidentally, I know a woman I suspect might be abusive to her male partner. It does happen and I have my eye on that situation. I'm not going to discount the evidence just because she is a woman, but it is much rarer IMO.