Finding the strength to wave goodbye

[wavesandsmiles]

Links to previous threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1670597-So-DH-said

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1745551-DH-said-DH-left-waves-is-still-being-sick-but-into-the-third-timester

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1801734-Waves-is-winning-Here-comes-the-Acrobat

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1813521-Waves-is-determined-to-keep-winning-now-that-Acrobat-has-arrived

Your Friday sounds like mine Jax DDR plays trumpet and 3 hours of band practice 4.30 till 7.30 just grabbing a sneaky cuppa and 5 mins mn time between work and going there! Tomorrow …weather permitting am going to help sis move her plants to her new garden! And DD has drama for 2 hours 4 till 6! She's definitely got a better social life than me. Hope waves and her dcs have a fun weekend.

Hi waves, I'm another one wishing you a lovely weekend and hope you don't think we have been too harsh and that you feel you don't want to post anymore. If we seem harsh it's only because we care about you. I like to think we're like a collective maternal influence because your own mum is so shit.

I've got two children's parties tomorrow so a packed day. Nothing planned for tonight though so can relax :)Going to do a bit of baking after dinner I think. How is your baking going waves? I always enjoy reading about what you've been making.

on the subject of baking I have been bought a new kitchenaid mixer. Ive cleared a space on the kitchen surface and have stroked it every time I have gone in. Going to get baking soon, bread, cakes and anything else I can think of!

Just remembered I have a builder coming at 11, so Id best get in the shower and dressed now.

I have been having a good weekend. A very wonderful friend has been over for a few days and we talked and talked. He is a lot like me, and understands the logical brain/heart conflicts. We used to work together and a bunch of us went out for dinner last night. It was amazing - I was so scared about not being with Caspian, but I actually really enjoyed it. Everyone there was telling me not to get back with him too. In fact, one of my other very good friends said if I did she would never speak to me again Cruel to be kind maybe? Anyway, we had a lovely meal, then a few drinks after. Today I was LAZY before my afternoon gig, and I am off to bed soon as I have had a ridiculously busy week with house renovation type things. I also discovered I have a natural talent for carrot cake

My psychotherapist obviously cannot tell me what to do, our meetings are more my talking and him reflecting on what I am saying. Sort of anyway.

I basically think I assume that people are like me. That everyone is a really nice person. Just troubles may be in the way. But isn't that what we collectively believe as a society? Being sent to prison is not just about punishment, but about rehabilitation, because we believe that people can change for the better. Same with therapy. If people want to change we believe that they can and will. If people cannot change then there is no point in rehabilitation of offenders, or any point in therapy.

I do appreciate all your support, and messages, and the kindness that I feel emanating from here towards me and towards my family. But I think it is time I disappeared - I agree that whilst I have been assured that I am no longer being stalked here, he could well be reading all this and using it to get back into my life

"I basically think I assume that people are like me. That everyone is a really nice person"

I am guilty of this too and in certain situations it has just caused me immense pain.

If this really is the way you think despite everything this man has done to you, you honestly need better help than you've been getting and I hope beyond hope that you aren't passing on those beliefs to your children.

However, I wish you luck in the future and hope you access some better support than you're getting in real-life at the moment. Your safety and that of your children is of primary importance. I hope you get to that place.

Waves if you really believe that and you Don't move away then I am very afraid you're going to get sucked back down by twunt and tb. If you truly believe everyone is good and deserving of nice things and chances then provide them to yourself and your children . are going to mess with their their heads so much that they will repeat your family dynamic in years to come. Your lovely sons will assume treating women like shite is normal and your DD will go out and find a man just like twunt …a charming bastard and she'll get sucked in. Good luck my dear in whatever you do next x

Waves I think you need a more pro-active therapy than just someone reflecting your own thoughts back at you. Perhaps you could look into this?

I so hope that you don't get back with him. He is not a good person (many ex-offenders repeatedly offend so rehabilitation clearly doesn't work for everyone). He is bad for you and worse for your children.

Right, this won't be very articulate as I am also trying to entertain my youngest, by pulling silly faces.

I am actually feeling angry at te suggestion that my core belief that all people are naturally good, that inherent in each person is a core that is "nice". Those that don't believe this must then believe that some babies are born bad. I believe that it is a natural part of the the human condition to be good, but, as a result of conflicts with the reptilian aspect of our brain, there is also a tendency for aggression. There is then a permanent tension within each person. Conditioning also impacts upon personality, but, as I said in my previous post, the entire concept of rehabilitation of offenders and of therapy falls to pieces without the belief that people can change, can revert to the natural state of goodness.

Now, what is the point of ME going to therapy if I cannot change, if who I am now is who I always will be? For what it is worth, regardless of what you say, I'm a pretty good advert for the benefits of therapy. I'm unrecognisable from the young woman I was 12 years ago. A really good mum, very successful professional, talented and in demand as a musician. 12 years ago pretty much everyone believed I was going to die. I changed.

Of course in order to change the individual has to want to do so, and be prepared to face up to and admit bitter nasty truths about themselves. Twunt may or may not be ready to do this. I am not sure i want to be in any way involved with him as he goes (if he goes) on that journey. I may or may not want to be part of his life if be successfully challenges and learns to modify his unhealthy and selfish behaviours and the thought processes that lead him to act in the way he does. But I do believe that he has the potential to be a nice, kind, good person. I don't believe he is at the moment, although I see the potential and he certainly has been showing more and more of the potential.

And I believe this of everyone. I do not believe that the little man propped up against me right now is naturally bad. I believe that as a species we are naturally good although with a naturally agressive/ selfish tendency resulting from this reptilian aspect. I have started ( just at home til the baby can be left for me to go to training) boxing, my friend used to to MMA fighting. And we are 2 of the most calm and pretty "nice" souls you will find. It's a way of channelling out the reptilian rage, in a controlled way. Maybe the politicians in the US should take up wrestling and that would mean they wouldn't need to go starting wars in Syria.

I totally digress, well, not totally. It is a central belief of mine that does not need to be cured by therapy because it is a GOOD way to be. And I am not going to put my DCs through hell, or allow them to learn to accept negative patterns of behaviour from others, or to treat other people badly. So I am taking my time and thinking about them and yes, I am hoping that twunt goes forwards and accesses therapy. I'm not a broken person, I tend to let my heart rule my logical brain yes, but that doesn't make me broken. I do not believe I deserve to be treated badly, I believe I deserve to be treated like a princess. Yes, the past few weeks I've been letting my heart rule but I am now on a time out whilst he accesses help and I have some uncontaminated time as it were to really think.

Anyway, I really am disappearing now, but I am really actually sad for those of you who don't believe that we are all naturally good. It seems overly cynical and defeatist and a miserable way to live in this world. It is especially sad as all of this year I felt so comforted by the kindness and live shown to me by complete strangers on here, it actually reinforced my belief in this natural goodness.

My take on this waves is that twunt is a pro at manipulation. He was only able to treat you as he did because he had you under his thumb - you broke free and he had to put on a 'nice' facade in order to get you back under his spell. I really can't think that you are someone who would have accepted him into your life and agreed to marry someone who treated you and your children so badly - so he's done exactly this before.

Whilst he may have good in there, he is now skilled in putting on a 'good' facade when he needs to, just to get where he wants then lets that facade slip. It clearly is a well used tool which he uses to get what he wants.

I suppose the question is, does he, deep down, acknowledge that he has a problem, and want to change sufficiently to work on it? And at the bottom of that the question is, 'what's in it for him?' - my worry is that his technique has served him well so far, which surely is going to mean that he's less inclined to change, even if he says he is (ie is that just part of the 'good' facade?)

Yes of course people can change if they think they need to & want to. I hope he does so that he can be a good father to your lovely boy. I also believe that we are born good & innocent but something obviously happens to some people as they grow up & they learn that they can get their own needs met by hurting & manipulating others. He has had no reason to change so far, as he still gets his needs met despite his awful treatment of others doesn't he?

Good luck Waves & I wish you all the best for the future.

Has anyone actually said they think everyone is inherently bad? I don't think they have. I think they may have said twunt is. Because he either is and can't help it, can't see it, doesn't want to change or enjoys inflicting pain on people in which case he is downright evil.

We are all the product of our upbringings and what life has thrown at us. How we deal with it is mostly down to choice.

My upbringing was shit beyond shit and by "rights" I should be dead, on drugs/alcohol, living fuck knows where with fuck knows who having lost my children to social services.

What I am actually doing is living in a nice home, with a extremely loving and strong husband, three children, pets we adore living a pretty nice life and trying to deal with some shit stuff I am still going through. I have come through a lot and while I think I am not strong as I fall about at tiny stuff, I also know I must be as I am still here, with my husband and children trying to make a good home and family life.

Therefore my inherent whatever it is has won over the shit I have had and I believe that is it rather than me making a choice one day not to do the stuff I said above. I never went off the rails and then had to sort myself out, I was just always on the rails.

No one is saying it is wrong to believe the best in people. What is wrong is allowing yourself and your children to be hurt while this person inflicts his hurt on you and then allowing him to do it over and over again when he has shown no signs of being aware he is behaving badly or even caring that you are hurt. Him appearing to be "nice" for a few minutes does not equal a good person who has learnt and matured. It just gets him a shag and time with his baby and then he reverts back to shithead as it has all been an act.

If he was truly sorry or couldn't help himself he would apologise, seek help and advice from the professionals, maintain his baby financially and stay away until he is ready and willing and able to be a safe person for your children to be around

No one is saying your baby is inherently bad and you are unfair to say they have.

We all care. We have tried to help and support you for months through posts on here, PMs and sending gifts through the post. To appear to have thrown that away is hurtful and unfair.

We are not going to say it is fine to be back with him as in the state he is it isn't fine. We would be doing you and your children a disservice to say we are happy for you. What we will say it is not a good idea but we will be here to help and support you if that it the way you are choosing to live your life.

Be careful.

.

For me though some things are unforgivable - being cruel to me when I was carrying his child and very ill, researching late abortions for a child we'd planned for together, cheating, potentially giving you and Caspian a STD. No matter how much he changes I just couldn't move past those things. Could you really do that waves? Could you be happy and secure in a relationship with him?

Also, he has fooled you before (before you wed) into believing he was decent and kind. He is manipulative and I believe he could manipulate you again to believing he has gone through a massie transformation and has changed. But next time the chips are down i bet he'll revert straight back to lying, manipulative, cruel twunt.

I do agree that we are all inherently good and circumstance etc change us. As I said upthread, you could say that about anyone, people who commit horrific crimes are often described by their family as being 'good deep down'. And they probably are. Doesn't mean I'd want them in my house around my children though.

Please, lovely, let twunt go on this journey, whether or not he chooses to, alone.

Good luck for the future waves.

I agree waves I believe all children are born good however by adulthood I don't believe that, I think there is a point where people decide which road to take, and they do that based on experiences. I never wanted to upset you by my post, and I totally agree that you have been shown nothing but wonderful kindness by the people on this thread who all myself included feel that you are an amazing woman and mother, unfortunately you're Achilles heel is smarmy Mr nice bastard, and while he's around you are in danger.

I'm glad you realise how good you are, the fact you can list all your achievements shows you now know your own worth …and you are worth way more than twunt.

Waves, perhaps a foray into philosophy/religion could be an idea, where you could bash this out. There are some knowledgeable people on there who can certainly set out an argument.

fwiw no, I don't believe we are all inherently good. I believe we definitely have a core instinct (and choice) to be good but that there are more compelling core instincts to be 'bad'. I believe we are largely socialised to be good/decent etc. So my beliefs are opposite to yours: that we are inherently 'bad' but learn to be 'good'. Social disapproval is a large determining factor in being 'good' - but some people are immune to social disapproval; their core impulse to be self-serving outwins any outward disapproval; particularly as to be self-serving pays dividends, is very enjoyable. (Not that there is currently a lot of outward/moral disapproval in our culture at present eg back in the day, a man who treated a woman the way this knob has treated you would be socially castigated. Now it is a core social belief that what others do is none of our business, that we shouldn't judge. To the point that we are judged for judging...)

Oh waves - you are such a lovely person. To believe that everyone is inherently good - yes, they have the capapcity to be good through and through, but upbringing and nurture change it all. Some people cannot change back, even if they want to (which they don't normally).
You may feel twunt is 'good' - but it is not up to you to fix him; it's up to him.

I will miss you waves feel like we know you a little bit and have been rooting for you from the first post. But I get it you need to live in RL and see what life brings. hope everything goes well for you.

Waves best of luck.

Please don't think that you can't come back if you need MN - even if you name change to do so.

I hope you don't think that MN and RL friends are getting at you - I honestly think that people are really worried for you. I don't think that the suggestion that counselling may help is to insinuate that you are broken, but just that you seem to have such a blind spot when it comes to this particular area of your life.

FWIW, I agree with your belief that we are all (mostly) born good. However I think that life can throw things at people that changes them forever - rehabilitation may work for some people, but for others it will have absolutely no effect. From the little I know of your H, I honestly think he is a sociopath, with no regard for you, or indeed anyone else. It is well recognised that therapy and counselling has absolutely no effect whatsoever for sociopaths, although they can do a stirling job of creating the impression that they have changed, for as long as it suits their purposes to do so.

Ultimately, it's your life and up to you to live it how you want.

Genuinely best wishes to you and your little family.

Good luck Waves if you're still reading.

FWIW I also believe everyone has, at their core, a spark of perfection and that everyone has it within them to be good.

I think what's more important now is that whether or not Twunt is a 'good' person, he is clearly not very good for you, certainly not right now.

I wish you all the very best, and your family, and hope that you do come back sometime to tell us all how fabulously you're getting on.

Waves I have lurked on your threads for a while. I am so very sorry for your pain.

I also believe that everyone has an inherently 'good' core to their being, I have learned from experience that some people actively choose to overrule this goodness and behave in ways which are to all intents and purposes 'evil'. I also spent a long time being vulnerable to people who chose to deny their core goodness, just as you are now, but then I was brought up by my mother to not make a fuss, to be subservient to others (especially men), to 'endure' life. For a long time, I internalised my 'D'M's belief system and it made me miserable and suicidal. I was well known for only picking up losers and bastards, they seemed to be able to sniff out women like me, they charmed and lied and hurt and harmed, and I would let them come back into my life as often as they liked until they got bored of my doormat tendencies. My first husband told me that he had been visiting prostitutes and was in fact pimping a couple of girls, so, like you, I had to go and get tested with a small baby in tow. It was utterly humiliating.

I eventually accessed CBT and mindfulness training. It helped me to be able to put my needs (and following on from that, my DC's needs) before those of people who might want to hurt us. I still believe that people are good at their core, it doesn't now blind me to the fact that some people act like utter cunts.

Take care, Waves.

I hope you find your happily ever after xxx

waves you can always PM me if you need a chat, or just to sound off. There is nothing in this world more important to you than your children, that is clear.

I wish you all the luck in the world with everything.

I've only just found this thread and caught up.

I don't know if you know this Waves, but when I'm not hooking blankets for people I've never met I'm a therapist. I mostly, but not exclusively, work with young people.

Do you know what? I wouldn't take on Twunt as a client if I had even the basic facts. Because he's clearly nowhere near ready to look at himself and take responsibility for his actions. It simply wouldn't work. That's a huge, huge chasm of a difference between the two of you.

Sleeping with you when he knew he could be risking your health was calculated. It was a choice. He wanted to hurt you for daring to be doing well without him. He is, for whatever deep down reasons, abusive.

You deserve more.

I don't want to be treated like a 'princess' or to think that's what I deserve. I've only ever wanted to be treated as an equal partner and regarded as a full human being. But as I recall, this was one of the reasons why you were so vulnerable to this man in the first place. He treated you like a 'princess' instead of a fully emancipated woman. As soon as you started to express the opinions of a normal person, you were knocked off your 'princess' pedestal and punished for it.

Like I said, I haven't seen all your threads, but I'm sure your supporters would have told you over and over again that there is no 'cure' for sociopathy and it's not something that therapy can fix. As I'm sure they will also have told you that it's not your role to fix him or wait for a 'recovery' that is never going to happen.

None of this means that the dissenters on this thread who've challenged your beliefs or your actions are cynical, defeatist or have miserable lives, nor that they believe that in a fundamentally healthy person, change is impossible or therapy, valueless.

But not when it comes to sociopathy.