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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationships

violetshoes · 07/10/2013 01:43

It was great you had mumsnet support during your pregnancy and birth.

Now that MNetters are offering more concrete advice, I can understand that it will feel overwhelming thinking about what has to change if you (and possibly more importantly, your children) are to have a happy life.

It will of course be easier to just continue on as you are, especially as you live somewhere where people have known you your whole life and have pigeonholed you.

I hope that you will mull things over for a while and then, when you're ready, take the excellent advice offered on this thread.


Good luck.

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stargirl04 · 07/10/2013 03:29

Hi Waves, de-lurking to say that I've suffered from the same affliction in the past: wanting the old person back, or the person you thought he was.

Years ago I read a book by Zelda West Meads about men who can't commit - even if they do go on to marry and have children, their ambivalence wreaks absolute havoc. As it has with you.

West Meads describes men who sound like your H (and one or two of my exes): mad, bad and dangerous to know. The problem is, they are always so utterly charming and wonderful at first; just long enough to reel you in.

I went through an immensely painful time four years ago with a Cluster B personality (a narcissist) and the following was very helpful to me - I think it will ring true for you too:

---------

Between Devalue and Discard:

Contributed by Mommybunny

For anyone who has ever been enmeshed with another human being suffering a Cluster B Personality Disorder, it occurs to me that the suffering is greatest between the time we are devalued until we are indeed, thankfully, discarded.

For those fortunate enough to not know the meaning of a Cluster B Personality Disorder, it may be better to stop reading now. If you insist, then I will explain the characteristics of these people. A Personality Disordered human being has a pattern of behavior that is other than the norm; that is ingrained, and rigidly part of the individual’s personality. The Personality Disorders in the Cluster B family include the Histrionic, the Borderline, the Narcissist and the Antisocial individual. These are the dramatic and seductive people that we know. These are the people who can make the most rational person believe the most irrational things.

At first, it is paradise. They are exciting and sexy. They are adventurous. They seem to make us feel more attractive, more important and more brilliant than we ever even dared to believe. We have no idea that it is all part of a dance repeated by these people over and over again. We are idealized. We are the most perfect ideal of our own self- image. These people have done the work of the makeup artist. We are seeing ourselves in reflection, but in perfect form. How could we not fall in love?

The idealization phase is heaven. Nothing could be better. It is a little bit heady in experience. We feel off-balance. We feel higher than we have ever flown before, but with a sense of danger. We are losing ourselves. It feels too good to be true. It feels to good to be true because it is.

One day, for no reason that we can identify, something ugly happens. We find ourselves ignored, or deeply insulted, or the object of rage. There seems no reason for this. It hurts like the stab of a knife to the soul. We try to make amends for this unseen thing we did to become less wonderful to our partner. In the back of our minds, I think we know that it is the beginning of something very different. We know, deep down inside that our partner is idealizing something or someone else. But we believe that it is a flash in the pan. They will surely see that what they have with us is so good, so pure and so real, that whatever is momentarily attractive will pass. We all become enamored with moments outside of our primary relationship. For most people, for people with solid boundaries, it passes like a movie and we return to real life without ever acting upon our fantasies. We assume that our partner will do the same. It lingers longer than we like, but things do get better. Life does not return to its previous perfection, but flickers of our dream return. We decide to be more attractive, more talented and more attentive so that we can insure that it doesn’t happen again.

But we have been devalued. We may be valued again, but never idealized. We do not understand because there is no reason why we should. So begins our loss of our own identity to try to recapture the love. We are living between devalue and discard. This is the common thread that binds the diagnosis to the patient with a Cluster B disorder. These people lack a developed sense of “self” and so they borrow ours. In doing so, they become less enchanted with the image. We are now tainted with the horror they avoid. They see the phantom, distorted image of their own inner world. This, they cannot bear. We have lost our luster in binding to this partner. He or she must find a new specimen. They need fresh humanity that does not bear the mark of their own tortured soul.

We cannot understand at first. We have our psychic wounds, but we can tolerate and even enjoy our own company. Imagine what it must be like to consider one’s own company to be either nothing at all or something vile. It must be terrifying. From this point of view, it is understandable that this human must try to do everything and anything possible not to look in the mirror. They run away. They project the vile parts of themselves onto us. For some time, we accept the burden. We see they are in pain. We love them and so we take it on, hoping to ease the burden and help them feel better.

Time after time, we take on their pain. It is confusing to us that this seems to make them hate us so much more. It makes no sense to a person with an identity of one’s own. They look at us and see themselves. They rage and run; they insult and beg; they find fault and ridicule. We love them. In the confusion, we become traumatized and distraught. We fall into an abyss. We cannot see ourselves any longer. We have reached the ultimate irony. For the Narcissist, the Borderline, the Histrionic, and the Antisocial, to not be able to see one’s self is a great victory. For us, it is the ultimate loss.

When we reach this point, it is hard for us to know that we really do still have the upper hand. We believe that we are powerless and the disordered partner has all of the power. The disordered partner believes this as well. We become an annoyance to them, a reminder of their own true nature. The partner leaves us at the side of the road, presumably to die, and moves on to the fresh target.

As hurtful as any rejection is, our ultimate salvation is this discard. We mourn the loss and re-evaluate our priorities. We begin to acknowledge ourselves again. We have the gift of ourselves. When no one else is around, we are keeping company with a human being with a soul, our own soul. Gradually we take ourselves to work, to the store, to school. We rebuild bridges and construct new roads. We create ways to take our complete self to interact once again with others. We begin to heal.

Healing from the dagger of a Cluster B partner is a slippery journey. As we regain ourselves, we have not yet completely closed our heart to this person whom we loved. We are loving people by our nature. We have experienced the end to romantic love before and with healing from this wound. With the passage of time, we often find that a loving friendship or at least a fond spirit remains between our former romantic partner and ourselves. The disordered partner sees our new energy and thirsts for it once again. From our past experience with non-disordered partners, we welcome the overture.

It is quite surprising and disappointing when the disordered partner uses up our newly-acquired energy for life in short order and leaves again by the side of the road. Again, we must recover on our own. This dance can repeat itself many times. Each time is shorter and, thankfully, less painful. We learn to protect ourselves from the disordered, from the predator that he/she is.

In the end, the final discard belongs to us. We set the limit. We end the dance. They have no limits and are unable to do this. The abyss between devaluation by our partner and the ultimate discard by our choice is bridged when we realize that there is no going back in any way. No friendship, no enmity, there can be nothing at all.

--------------

Also have a look at this:

esteemology.com/the-three-phases-of-a-narcissistic-relationship-cycle-over-evaluation-devaluation-discard/

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MissStrawberry · 07/10/2013 07:26

Still thinking of you, Waves, and hope you and your children can have the peaceful, safe, happy life you all deserve.

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captainmummy · 07/10/2013 08:31

Waves - I've been thinking about you, and I know you want your 'happy ever after', but from the things you've told us about him, it's really not going to happen.
Yes it was fine, lovely in the beginning; as soon as things got hard, he turned, - fled back into single-dom, cruelty, horrendous abuse. Your pregnancy, illness, the house-refurbishment, the lodgers, the continuing sickness - these were all things he could not be bothered with, so he left you to handle it all! And you were so strong.
As soon as things were good again - Caspian born, house nice, illness gone and lovely wife back - he's back. He really wants a good life without any of the rocky patches - as soon as you hit another one, he'll be off. And you will have another broken heart.

I hope I'm wrong and he really is a 'good guy underneath' - but to be honest, I'd wait a bit longer to make sure. Don't let him back til you're sure.

BTW how did the STD checks go? Hope you are all fine.

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Ajaney · 07/10/2013 08:59

I have watching all your threads from the start. I don't post much but I wanted to wish you well. So much has happened but you kept on going through it all.
I hope you may update in the future and will look out for you. Good luck.

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MissStrawberry · 07/10/2013 12:18

Further to my PM,s, waves. I did get my happy ever after but with someone who was always good and not someone who hurt me and then sorted himself out.

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KiwiJude · 07/10/2013 21:56

Don't shoot the messengers Waves. Everyone here has been, and still is, very supportive of you. I think possibly the latest revelations have made a lot of us worry even more about you. There's a lot of helpful advice here waves, it probably is a bit overwhelming. Take care and check in.

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bestsonever · 07/10/2013 23:48

He could change, but that is not good enough a reason for most people to accept someone back who has behaved appallingly. The point is to have your own standards of how you should be treated and stick to them with any man. So what if he does improve ? He's still done bad things and is not worthy of you.
How you yourself change is the crux, you can't manage someone else's change. Set the bar, stick to it, dump anyone who falls below it without exception. Stop forgiving a back catalogue of bad behaviour and just be happy for the people who could get treated better when they meet him in the future if he does improve.
I would think that once a partner has realized the error of their ways successfully, the remorse they would feel would probably make them want to start a fresh with someone who has not been on the receiving end anyway, otherwise it would make it hard for them to move on. So successful change may well mean he does not want to associate with you anymore, and not entail a dream that he'll want to be good for you. He may get to a point where he can be good in other relationships, let this one go for your own sake.

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mistlethrush · 08/10/2013 11:03

Still here Waves. I'm hoping all is well and that your resolve has not faltered.

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JaxTellerIsAllMine · 08/10/2013 13:17

me too, wishing you well.

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wavesandsmiles · 08/10/2013 13:36

Still reading, still processing. Still worried that the eyes of twunt are on this thread. Trying to get through the hideous conflicts in my head and desperately hoping that I do the thing that is right. So for now I guess I need time away from twunt. Totally away like I managed before. No texts or calls or visits. It's hard though. My baby is having some growth spurt or something and has spent about 80% of today attached to my boob. It is very tiring. And I feel a bit bad making my bigger 2 help out with housework when twunt has offered, but I need the space away from him.

OP posts:
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MinnieBar · 08/10/2013 14:05

If he really wants to help, he could pay for a cleaner!!

(Do take note, Twunt)

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MissStrawberry · 08/10/2013 14:09

It is good for children to realise there are jobs that need to be done to keep house.

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themidwife · 08/10/2013 17:14

Or he could pay a decent amount of child maintenance? Still paying £30 per month "cos that's all babies cost" is he?!!

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JaxTellerIsAllMine · 09/10/2013 09:25

I agree, the children doing jobs is part of life. They help create mess and need to help clear up.

As for twunt, pay for a cleaner to help out.

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wavesandsmiles · 09/10/2013 10:52

I've not had any maintenance at all yet...

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themidwife · 09/10/2013 10:57

Charming!!

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mistlethrush · 09/10/2013 11:05

Probably thinks that babies don't cost anything to feed, clothe or house....

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JaxTellerIsAllMine · 09/10/2013 11:22

seriously? he has not given you any CASH towards your little baby? Clothes, heating, washing, laundry, food... it all costs money.

words fail me! Angry

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Canalside · 09/10/2013 11:59

Has been a long time since I posted on your threads, but as ear-infected monster is still upstairs sleeping I shall take the opportunity now.

It's not for me to say whether it's right or wrong for you to sleep with twunt. But I will say that I felt scared for you and worried about you when I read it. I think everyone else did too. You can't control other people waves , you can only control yourself and your actions. You can't make him change, that has to be his choice, and his work to do that. He has treated you appallingly. You do have the choice whether you continue to have contact with him, and you have the choice about how to act in your own life, and what example you set to your children and what you expose them to.

From an outside point of you, you seemed so much stronger without him. I wanted to cheer every time I read your posts. You've done so much that you can be proud of. And now that he's back it seems like that strong woman is slipping away again. You may not have felt strong, but my word, you were so very strong and brave. Read through your posts, remind yourself of all that has happened, and then make your choice, because the human brain is great for minimising. Make your choice based on fact, not memories, which can be inaccurate.

If it is meant to be with twunt, then it will be. It won't matter if you take time to be alone (with your children obviously) and become that strong woman you were always meant to be. Maybe if you do you won't want him anymore, or you will realise he is not the best you can have. Or what you deserve. But if it is meant to be then time apart to be a strong independent woman is a good thing, and won't matter. I don't think you can lose by going NC again. If he loves you he will want this for you. He will want you to be the best person you can be.

The idea that every person is good inside is a very humanistic idea, as is the idea that every person will try to make the best of themselves, to strive to be the best they can be. I agree with this to some extent, most people I have met want to be the best they can be, want to be their "true" selves, want to realise their potential. But I don't think it can apply to everyone. I don't think it does. I think that some people are bad inside. Whether twunt is, I do not know. I suspect nobody knows, maybe not even him.

If I could give you one last bit of advice it would be this - having read your threads, having written down every single thing he has done, good and bad, bearing in mind the facts - what would your DD and DS (and C, but that's more difficult to say) say to you? What would you say to your best friend in the same situation? What would you say to your DD? Then, whatever that is, do that. Treat yourself as you would treat others.

Look after yourself.

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MissStrawberry · 09/10/2013 12:53

Angry

Not a bloody penny!

Disgraceful. I know money and access are separate things and one doesn't buy the other but you really need to remember your zero maintenance next time he wants to see the baby.

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shiningcadence · 09/10/2013 12:59

That's really appalling and if twunt is reading this I hope he feels really ashamed.

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wavesandsmiles · 09/10/2013 16:40

Hmmm, realising it really is another mark against him, the whole not paying maintenance thing. Yes I know this is obvious to the entire rest of the world but I've been, well, a bit blinkered.

Anyway, as of last night I've told him no contact and that I am definitely divorcing him. A bit scared here now, I'm not going to update for a few days in case he's reading, but I am determined to get through this next step.

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auntpetunia · 09/10/2013 18:23

Good on you …He needs to be officially out of your life! Come back when you're ready we'll all be here to cheer you on. Good luck stay strong x

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AgathaF · 09/10/2013 18:41

I've kept off your thread for a few days as I was sure I had unintentionally offended you, but couldn't say anything really positive to you to counter it. I am sorry if I did offend, as it was not my intention.

Reading just now though, I have to say that I am so glad that you are going no contact with him, and that you recognise that you may have been blinkered about certain things.

I think your plan of a few days ago and just now, to not update here on this board in case he is reading, is a good one.

Good luck.

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