End my 18 year arranged marriage?

[zombiemum]

I am looking for advice about my arranged marriage, I feel like I am going slowly crazy. Please be kind, I'm emotionally spent and frequently end up in tears lately.

My husband is from Pakistan, we have been married over 18 years. My parents knew I had no desire to be married, but married me off at 18, what I wanted simply didn't enter into the equation.

We have a DD age 9 and a DS age 4. The thing that is becoming more and more of a deal breaker for me is the fact that he is so slow to adapt and change. He speaks with a heavy accent, his written English, grammar and spelling is appalling, my DD writes better than he does. He understands that he should work on his language skills but is too lazy to do so. In fact, too lazy to do so just about sums him up.

Up until a few years ago, he went to work and came home, did a bit of hoovering, played with the kids and that was it. I, meanwhile, have spent years being constantly stressed out of my box doing all the household admin, everything to do with the car, solicitor, making appointments, researching the best products to buy; need a new car? I do all the research. Going on holiday? I do all the research, he?s happy to tag along but as soon as something goes wrong he criticizes and moans and gets angry that I should have known x, y or z was going to happen. I do all the problem solving, dealing with any tradesmen, any crisis that pops up I have to deal with because he just sits there looking like a frightened, lost little boy.

I was told frequently when I said I don't want to marry anyone from Pakistan, that I was making a fuss about nothing, they learn, they pick everything up when they're here and have to do it.

He is in a position of responsibility at work, works hard there, but is quite happy to have everything done for him at home. I have been a SAHM for the last 7 years but I started College last August as I want to change careers and need the skills that are required. I'm at College full time, on his two days off, he takes the kids to school etc, and does whatever needs to be done around the house.

I have just started a two year course. I will be actively looking for a full time job after this, plus my youngest will be at school. Money is tight.

Whenever we have problems he will not sit down and discuss things. He goes silent, won't talk and just shuts down. I end up losing my temper.

We have had huge problems in the past with him sending money home to his family without discussing these finances with me first, we have been on the verge of divorce many times. He is secretive and silent when it comes to this. But now I have kids, am a SAHM, I have no means to support myself and my parents have made it clear they want nothing to do with it.
 
The deal breakers for me are:

Has been approached many times by his bosses for promotion but won't go for it. He stepped down a level a few years ago blaming it on lack of support in his role, irresponsible staff, being constantly short- staffed and no time to train up all the new starts he had.
I have no respect for him.
He refuses to talk through any problems in our relationship; doesn't want to know. If pushed will immediately cry divorce knowing I have no means to support myself.
Stonewalls, ignores my feelings/emotions completely but thinks its okay to approach me for sex.
I feel utterly alone and bereft.

Its long, sorry.

WELL SAID, Garam. PS I agree that the educated people of India and Africa are more educated than the English!

This isn't, as Zombie says, about accents and whether arranged marriages are good or not - those are defensive side-shows.

Look, I think people really need to cut the cackle.

I get completely fed up of right-on, liberal white people who APOLOGISE for their culture and PRETEND that other cultures are 'as good as' theirs is. Right-on, super-liberal multi-culti deceitful patronising self-hating BS.

Equally, I despise other cultures who go on a victim-party whilst completely denying what is wrong with their cultures which failed them (politically and economically) and required them TO VOTE WITH THEIR FEET TOWARDS THE WEST.

Come on, let's stop lying! I come from Africa. Let us tell a few truths:

Some of the self-indulence of the West cause them huge problems. The West (especially Britain) in my opinion is Godless, licentious, and lost. It surprises me not at all that Western youth, despite all their frantic partying and hanging it all out, report deep feelings of emptiness and have the highest rate of depression. Their souls are not filled by all this materialism and ease of life.

Africans have a real problem with the misuse of political and economic power which results in grinding poverty and misery for the people.

Muslims have some severe internal splits which they deny and project onto the West. It doesn't work, and only when Islam starts debating stuff honestly will these things be resolved. I mean, come on! Wahhabi, Sunni/Shia etc are NOT WESTERN PROBLEMS.

Non-Western cultures - African, Indian, muslim etc. - are severely patriarchal and harm themselves immeasurably with this DEVALUING of half their population.

The Pakistani practice of endlessly marrying cousins and the Indian and Chinese practise of aborting females is just obviously, plainly, fucking stupid. The Almighty Our Creator, sits and waits for us sinful humans to reap our own consequences. Which are: increasing genetic and mental problems, and who are all those little princes going to marry? The mills of God grind slow, but they grind!

BUT: bottom line, and let's stop lying about this - the 100s of years of civil war and upheaval and revolution the countries of the West have gone through has shaped and created INSTITUTIONS that are vital and WHY the West works in a way the rest of the world doesn't. Rule of law. Freedom of speech. Independence of the judiciary. Education. Patent laws. Intellectual property. You might not have thought about these issues at all, ever; but they create the situation in which jobs and freedom and safety and consistency HAPPEN, and they are why you, your people, and your ancestors (me too) VOTED WITH OUR FEET. We are here because OUR COUNTRIES AND CULTURES FAILED US.

Bottom line! It is time we stopped being victims and defensive about our cultures, and told people who are not grateful to be here to either fit in or go home, and it is time English people stopped pretending their institutions are not superior.

Back to Zombie's dilemma, which is real and involves human beings doing things wrong!

sorry, could I add to the end of the sentence about Africans: misery for the people - which of course, they blame on 'colonialism' and 'imperialism' ie the West and white people. After 60 years this is getting really lame.

Blimey, this thread has really stopped being anything to do with the OP's original dilemma and a lot of culture bashing and projection of poster's own issues onto the OP.

Zombie, I really do think you should take what is good from this thread and perhaps repost under another name about leaving and the help you need, without reference to all the cultural issues which are really a bot of a red herring.

good luck!

Romilly, are the cultural issues just a red herring?

It is clear that OP 'looks down' at her husband. He is just not good enough for her. And there is a cultural element to this, for sure, from OP's posts -

"The thing that is becoming more and more of a deal breaker for me is the fact that he is so slow to adapt and change. He speaks with a heavy accent, his written English, grammar and spelling is appalling, my DD writes better than he does. He understands that he should work on his language skills but is too lazy to do so. In fact, too lazy to do so just about sums him up."

"My 'D'H has been here 18 years but has failed to pick up the language skills. He embarrasses me in every social encounter we have at the school. Other couple's conversations flow naturally, when people speak to us they have to slow the conversation right down as they can see he just doesn't understand."

"He might a complete buffoon in every area but not when it comes to money and how much I'm spending"

"Despite living in a non-asian area, he has no English friends. His friends are all other Pakistani's from the scattered community here."

He may well be a laid-back underachiever, but honestly, I would say OP shows an appalling lack of sensitivity to her husbands situation as a migrant. If she bothered to read any account of people who move to new countries, with new languages, she would find that lots of people have difficulty learning the language, especially nuances. She made some snide comment about her husband not understanding 'bee in her bonnet'. I would be surprised if OP could get subtle cultural references in mandarin, even if she had lived there for 18 years. My friends who have moved to China and married local Chinese women definitely feel like foreigners in many ways and usually hang out with expat friends. Nothing new there.

And most bizarre of all, this -
"I cannot confide in my English friends as I would rather die of shame than admit I'm in an arranged marriage even though it's so bloody obvious."

Who are these 'English' friends? Are only white UK nationals 'English'? And why is OP so keen to win their approval that she would 'die of shame' if they disapproved of the cultural origins of her marriage?

They are both clearly incompatible.

OP is unhappy and does not wish to be married to him. I think that is enough to be honest.

And he sounds exhausting. It's something else when you have a grounding of mutual love and repsect within your marriage, but OP's relationship does not seem to have that, from either side, her husband sulks when they have arguments yet he still expects sex!

It's not a crime not to find someone attractive, by all accounts it does not sound like OP would have chosen this man for herself had she been given the choice.

After 18 years of such a marriage, anyone would feel traumatised, OP's feelings of shame are her feelings. She doesn't need to be ashamed her friends will understand I'm sure. But she doesn't need to justify her feelings either IMHO.

I dont think we are placed to berate her for feeling how she does. None of us are living her life.

OP, start squirrelling money away, keep a very close eye on bank accounts, ensure you are not named as co-signatory on any debts except the mortgage. Remove passports and birth certificates to a safe place. Obtain your husbands NI number and work address and details as you will need these if you apply for CSA for your children (you can apply without them but its faster if you have this).
I'd also get counselling, you appear to be suffering a great deal and doing it alone, nobody can function like that.
also look around for housing how much it would cost etc to get an idea of the target amount you need to save to leave. Make an appointment with your local CAB and find out what you would get in benefits if you left. Make an appointment with a solicitor and see what they say abotu divorce proceedigns and what they tihnk you would realistically get.

Hope for an amicable parting, but prepare for fight.

You?re right Flatbread, I didn?t go into a blow by blow account of the years and years I?ve spent WAITING patiently for him to adjust. To point out resources available that would help, to guide him in every aspect and every last detail of his life. Hoping and waiting.

Staying silent for fear of hurting his ego; every attempt that I or my family members made (my brother especially) to help him improve his language skills were shunned with horror (why? fuck knows). Because in the early days we were one big dysfunctional family, we kinda helped each other. It was my brother that would harp on at me about his ?simplicity? and how I ?needed? to get him into college, whereas I kept reassuring him that he would learn, he would get there in the end, that ?at the moment? he just wasn?t trying. ?At the moment? has turned into 18 years.

HE HAS MADE NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER TO IMPROVE HIS LANGUAGE SKILLS AND THEY REMAIN THE SAME AS THE DAY HE FIRST ARRIVED.

I have been to Pakistan several times and within weeks was speaking fluent Urdu, reading road signs, the newspaper, when it is not a dialect I am familiar with.

We used to write letters to each other in the beginning (no email, texts back then, just good old fashioned letters). He would complain he couldn?t read my letters in English-so guess what Flatbread? I learned to read and write Urdu, something I am had no experience of previously. He then asked me who was writing these letters for me because he didn?t believe it was me. I took my sorry ass off to an evening class and passed a fucking GCSE in Urdu, got an A. I practiced and practiced my handwriting skills. I put in the f*ing work because it MATTERED, it was important to our future that we were able to communicate.

18 YEARS HAVE PASSED. He never checked in to our marriage for me to be able to locate a point at which he may have checked out. Right from the get go he was SILENT and UNCOMMUNICATIVE and I spent YEARS blaming myself that I wasn?t good enough.

It is clear that OP 'looks down' at her husband. He is just not good enough for her.

Really? You reckon? HELL YES, I AM EMBARRASSED - so F*ING SHOOT ME!

I live in a white English community, there ARE NO black or Asian faces here. THIS IS my community, HERE, where I live. Not f*ing Southall, or Birmingham, and this is what I call home. I would like to ?fit in? to my little community if that?s alright with you Flatbread? I am trying to make new friends, network, get out more, I don?t have a pool of multi-culturalism going on here to take my pick from.

You clearly have some serious anger issues Flatbread that you need professional help for. Stop projecting your shit on to me. Get some counselling because you?re like a dog with a bone.

zombie I think you are totally right.
I am not english, have lived here for 15 years. It took me about 1 year to be able to understand everyone (by that I mean also be able to understand people with a strong scottish accent, being able to listen to Emmerdale and the like and get' all the slang and so on).
I have (albeit shortly) lived in Poland too. And I learn polish. Enough that I could sort of communicate with people there within a few months. I would expect that I wuld have been fluent if I had stayed 18 years there (not the least so I could communicate with my own dcs, support them at school talk to their teachers/friends, get my own friends etc...)

When you move to another country, the least you can do is learn the language of that country. I really think it's a minimum.

On the top of that, I think you have the really big issue of having brought up in the UK to to feel completely at ease here. Obviously, it's not a criticism but it means that your values are very very different from the ones of your DH. You want to 'fit in' your community, you know you actually do fit in but your DH doesn't (and doesn't seem to want to).
Yes he might have been forced to come to the UK. Just as the OP has been forced to marry him. At which point is it OK to say, 'I was forced to do X but I have decided not to do it anymore'.
If this is such an issue for the OP's DH, if he is struggling so much to adapt, why is he not going back to his country?
If the OP feels she has given her best go at making this marriage work and it's not working for her, why should she accept it 'Because it must be hard for her DH to be in a foreign country'?

You get the life you choose. At every point in life, you have a choice.

Flatbread, I would disagree with your experience of living abroad.
1- You can get the nuances, believe me you can. There might be always some little things you didn't know but nothing is stopping you from learning those as you go along (just as even as an english person, I am sure there are some expressions you don't know about). The OP is talking about someone who hasn't moved from a level similar to primary school age children. Not quite the same than 'not getting small nuances'
2- Yes some foreigners choose to mix mainly with expats. That doesn't mean that they have to or that they are right to do so. Being in China as a Westerner means facing racism (quite a lot) and being clearly a foreigner which are clear stumbling blocks. But these aren't there for the OP's DH. There are enough asian people in the UK that her DH doesn't stand out as 'obviously a foreigner'.
but in any case, the only way to be integrated is to mix with 'the locals'. You do need to make the effort though and that usually start with having a good handle of the language.
3- Unlike your example, the OP probably has a quite good understanding of the culture and nuances of her DH culture because of her own background (ie being bicultural). So she doesn't need to learn a lot of the things we would need to learn.
4- Have you actually lived abroad yourself and tried to be part of the local life, not living just as an expat?

I live in a white English community, there ARE NO black or Asian faces here

Hey, I am a non-white American in a totally white area in my adopted country. But unlike you, I don't have issues with it or a desire to win validation from the 'white' community. If anyone looked down their nose at me, they would get a kick on their arse rather than any brown-nosing to win their approval and 'fit-in'

And my white American friends in China? Yup, they are a very small minority as well. But somehow, people just put up with their weird foreigner/ Guaillo ways. As far as I know, people don't look down their nose at them either.

There is only one person in this thread who has shown serious anger issues. And no prizes for guessing who it is. For your own sake I hope you can work through it and your cultural/racial baggage

So Flatbread, are you saying that you don't get all the nuances of the english language too?

And why is it that you don't feel you need 'validation'? Is it because you actually don't really feel you belong to the UK unlike the OP who has been living here all her life and wants to feel included and belonging to that group?

that's not about skin colour issue, that's about the feeling on 'this is where I belong'.

Also remember, the UK is NOT her adopted country. It is HER country, the one where she grew up, the one that she has learnt and adopted the values from.

As it happens these values are clashing with the ones of her husband (and the ones that were her family's too).
It's not unusual for bi-cultural children, especially when there is such a big discrepancy and is a different matter to having moved to another country.

Have you actually lived abroad yourself and tried to be part of the local life, not living just as an expat?

Escape, if this was to me, I have lived in three continents and five countries. Lived, not visited. DH has done the same or a bit less. Dh and I come from different parts of the world, different race, culture, language. And our closest friends are people who have similar mixed backgrounds. So yes, mostly an expat community where ever we have been. There are just more shared reference points with people who are as international as us.

I mean this is nothing new. There are loads of people who have written about the displacement about being a foreigner. Straddling two or more countries and in some ways being a stranger to each, because you no longer fully fit in anywhere.

Regarding the language thing, some people are good with languages, others are not. So what? It doesn't make them 'buffoons'. If that was the case, most of the British expat community where I live would be buffoons as many of them cannot order more than a drink in French, and they all hang out with each other, within their comfort zone. (though in OP's case he mustn't be that bad since he found a job and was offered a promotion)

I think we all get that OP and her husband are incompatible. And that she should call it quits. But the contemptuous and demeaning way she talks about husband's efforts to adapt to a new culture is quite Obviously all her consideration and fawning is for her 'English' friends with whom she so desperately wants to fit in.

I am sorry but I think english people who live in France and can't even order a drink ARE buffoons. Just as a french person living in the uk but not speaking enough english to order a pint would be a buffoon (but strangely you never really hear that sort of story)

It's easy to live in another country within the expat community. There is little connexion with the people in that country, no risk of having to modify your behaviour to fit in. When you do move to another country, with no family around and get married to someone there, then the least you can do is 'get out there' be part of the wider community, not just the expats.

And his efforts are lame tbh. I have expected my DH to learn my home language even though he as 1- no interest at all in languages and isn't good at them and 2- he is never ever going to live in my home country. And he has because 1- he then can understand me and the dcs we speak in my mother tongue and 2- he can be part of whatever is happening when we are together with my family.
I think it's the least he could have done.

Interesting though that you find it difficult to adapt to new cultures etc.. when you have been travelling so much. And that you find that being part of the expat community is 'the norm' because 'it's so hard'.
Even though there are many many people who live in bicultural/binational marriage who have found this is NOT necessary and that you can adapt quite well to a new culture (especially when it's the same one for such a long time).

Note the 'not fully fitting anywhere' doesn't mean you should stop connecting with people from that country. And it is even more the case for children who have been brought up in multicultural environment. Have you given some clack to the OP about her own difficult position, being brought up by parents with a different culture than the one of her environment and how difficult it will be for her to manage expectations from 2 different cultures etc..? Have you though about difficult it can be for her too to fit in that cultural difference?

BTW, the OP IS English! That's her culture reference. She feels she doesn't fit in because she cannot 'be' the way she wants because she has to adapt to the culture of her DH that are different from hers and from her country.
It's different from wanting to fit as desperation which seems to be the way you've taken it.

GaramMasalaGirl
Thank you for sharing your amazing story. Every bit of it resonates, I am in awe. I am so glad you have found peace and happiness.....you are an inspiration, truly.

EscapeInTheCity

Thank you for explaining.

There is absolutely no fawning on my part to my English counterparts. None. My friends are my equals. I am not trying to impress anyone and couldn't give a shit if someone doesn't like me. I've already moved on. I have lost count of the number of acquaintences I've dropped when I realised they WERE looking down their nose at me. Na an, go f**k yourselves, I have no time for white superiority and snobbery. And trust me, around here, LOADS.

Growing up, I was not 'allowed' to socialise with my English schoolfriends outside of school. School and home were solar systems apart.

My whole married life I have contended with my DH's disapproval of my friends too. Frankly, I'm sick of it. Sick of being told what to do, who I can and cannot speak to. I am who I am and will not be forced to fit in to this narrow boxed in version of what others want me to be. This is MY life.

I WANT to feel a part of my community. To go to the school and just chat and laugh with the other parent's at Parent's Evenings; THIS is my home, HERE is where I belong and THIS is my community.

Why am I even having to justify this, FFS.

Whoa whoa Abitwobblynow

I really don't think thats fair, Romilly never said any such thing! What are you talking about?

A bit harsh to lay all the blame for right-on ultra liberalism at Romilly's feet?!!!!!

Zombie, it is fine if you want to leave your husband because you are incompatible or you don't find him atrractive or because you think he is too laid-back regarding his career. This can be the case with any guy, irrespective of where he is from.

The issues about him not speaking English properly, having a South Asian accent and having Pakistani friends and hence not 'assimilating' sounds like stuff from the Daily Fail.

I don't want to get into an argument with you. You are obviously going through a lot and need support. But I would gently point out that not every one who is supporting you is necessarily doing it out of your best interests, but doing it to affirm their own prejudices.

I would suggest you write in a British South Asian forum for support from people who have been in your situation or blank out the cultural/racial stuff and start another thread on MN to get general advice.

*I WANT to feel a part of my community. To go to the school and just chat and laugh with the other parent's at Parent's Evenings; THIS is my home, HERE is where I belong and THIS is my community.

Why am I even having to justify this, FFS.*

I often feel like this! espescially when it comes to threads about hijab and stuff, it is an amazing realisation that in the place you consider your home, and the only home you have ever known, others think it can never truly be your home, and you have to assimilate etc, how can you assimilate in to a place you are already part off?

As for your marriage, have you come up with a plan? 18 years is a long time, and each person knows how much they can bare. If you have had enough, then you don't need to justify your decision to anyone.

and as for you will have no one, feel free to pm me if you want to talk.

Nailak, no one is asking the OP to 'assimilate' - it is her own country, and she has all the ease and comfort of being in home territory.

Just questioning why her husband needs to 'assimilate' in a Daily Fail type of way. Surely he has a right as an individual to talk the language he wants and hang out with the friends he wants. Identity is to be celebrated, not hidden like a dirty secret.

If OP finds that shameful and embarrassing, she needs to find out why that is the case. Most people who have a spouse from another country are often irritated by their quirks and can find it a bit isolating having a cultural divide, but rarely find it shameful.

It is ironic that OP wants to be 'herself', but is deeply uncomfortable with her husband being himself.

I am walking away from this thread thinking that racism is well and alive. And sometimes in the places you least expect it to be.

I think a point that's being missed here is that english is a universal language. It is widely used in Pakistan , so the OPs husband must have had some exposure to it whilst being brought up there. It should therefore not require much effort on his part to become more fluent in it. he obviously just can't be arsed. However, in years to come he will find himself alienated from his children as that will be their first language. Also, agree with abitwobblynow. I also don't tell my english friends that I am married to my first cousin from Pakistan as they would find that a bit ergh, but in no way does that mean I'm trying to impress them. They don't need to know everything about me.

my parents are cousins, i didnt even know this growing up, there were always some confusions when it came to making family trees and all that, and when i figured it out in my teens, i hid it and was ashamed,

in contrast, my husbands bro and his wife are cousins, their kids are in twenties and have always known this, never seen it as something to hide or be ashamed off, and are happy with who they are.

Anyway this has nothing to do with OP.

OP has made her decision, and had EIGHTEEN YEARS to think it through, and try methods of sorting it out.

Not learning the language means you cannot discuss your DCs school work with their teachers and that everything, the council tax, rent, bank etc has to be sorted out by your english speaking partner.

I think it's fair and well to be liberal and quote the daily fail but the reality is that you need to learn the language of the country you live in.

I think the op is unable to express her thoughts/frustrations as well as someone else might. (Possibly more politically correctly).
Forget about being in a daily fail world, or a politically correct one.
For a marriage to work, a husband and wife need to make an effort to fulfil each others wants, needs and desires. The op clearly fulfilled her part by helping her dh here, doing all the things that need doing, having children etc etc. what has the dh done for her. Kindness and being good to the kids alone is not enough for a marriage. Not the type the opseeks anyway (rightly so).

What type of a life is it when one is not fulfilled sexually, mentally or financially ones partner.