Should I give a third chance?

[bendaroo]

I am in a real dilemma and can't easily talk to RL friends at the moment - kids at home for holidays, DH at home in the evening.

My DH had a friendship with a colleague two years ago which I was not happy about as he told lies and kept the extent of their friendship from me. (I knew about the lies because I looked on his phone and texts did not tally with what I was being told.) However he always maintained it wasn't physical. but during this period, he diminished my feelings and made me feel unreasonable and overly jealous. During a year of couple counselling, things improved and we agreed to keep things open and for there to be no more secrets. So I feel I gave him a second chance.

But I have just found more evidence of him agreeing to meet up with this person again and therefore lying as he has not told me himself. It's not a betrayal in a sexual way, I don't think, but by agreeing to travel to a sports event together he is going against all the work we did in counselling. I don't think I can trust him after finding this out and I don't think I can stay married to someone I can't trust. But we have 2 children and I'm in bits at the thought of splitting up.

He doesn't know that I know by the way so I'm keeping things ticking along as normal which is also really hard. Not sure what to do??

Counting, I think that even depressed people know that lying and deceiving their partners is wrong. I can't go into too much detail under this username, but I do have some experience of living with someone who has had bouts of depression. It does make people very selfish. Then again, it can be a very convenient hook to hang bad behaviour on, for people who would be selfish irrespective of whether they had depression or not.

Depression may be a factor in his recent behaviour or it might not. If he is unwilling to tackle it himself, then nothing will ever change. All I'm saying is, that unless he agrees to genuinely try to resolve his issues, the OP will never know whether it is the depression that causes his behaviour or if he is just like this generally

So far, he shows little inclination to get help. All the OP can control is her own life - she can't fix his.

No. {hsad}

I think this type of 'depression' is very much part of the affair script and is used as an excuse. There are plenty of people who are depressed and/or who have had utterly shit childhoods who wouldn't dream of acting like this.

OP its time to put you and the dcs first IMO - he's been putting himself first for a couple of years. It's worse that the sporting event he invited OW to includes an overnight stay. He should be aware of the implications of this even if he did not plan to have a night out with her/sleep with her etc.

Thanks for all comments they help me process this.

I am just running through the timeline of this latest email lie in my head. It feels really significant to me.

We had a bad weekend with dh feeling stressed. He told me he was feeling the depressed feelings again and it kind of freaked me out as I thought we were through that. I didn't ask him to expand even though I knew he wanted to talk about it - I went into my shell a little as in the past I've found it really hard when he's described suicidal feelings. So I did my typical pattern of head in sad, jollying along, gave him a hug and not much more. Then there was a bit of arguing over the weekend and he lost his temper with both children couple of times over 2 days. So I withdrew further and on the Monday day went to bed early, clearly in my own world, not happy with him because of the shouting over weekend. He emailed her on the Tuesday.

I think he tried to connect to me, reach out for help but I rejected him because I'm tired of the state of our marriage, the dominance depression takes within a family and all that. Then he reached out to her.

I am not excusing him. Just seeing a link. He needs something, maybe he can't get it from me or doesn't because I've checked out of the marriage emotionally. Just running all this through - maybe we both need psychodynamic counselling.

Don't you think that he was already in contact with her? You said this earlier on:

"Yes AThing I think he has been lying to me all along. I just happened to see one email exchange. I'm sure others have been deleted. And although it was chatty, not flirtatious, they know each other well enough to know they need to communicate blandly."

Becaroo I think you're taking way too much responsibility for this and I think it's causing you to timeline this incorrectly.

Yes maybe.

Any emails since that one exchange during a day, have been deleted. They must be chatting about timings etc at the moment.

And maybe bits of contact before that suggestion to meet. But you see emails from a few months ago were of the detaching variety - distancing. That was when he was happier, and we were close, and of course I felt closer to him every time I saw a distancing type one.

So let me get this straight.

He's been in reasonably regular contact with this woman and regardless of the content or context, he's never told you that he was?

What's his 'official' position on this? That he's never had any contact with her since they stopped working together?

Even if you were right about the timeline, he can't go running off to someone else every time you are not the 'perfect' understanding wife. You are entitled to have fears and concerns of your own. And to feel anger if he is being shitty to the kids. If you are not careful you will spend your life fretting that every time he has a problem and you don't give him all your time and attention, he could revert to this type of behaviour - and it would be a legitimate fear, based on current behaviour and his unwillingness to address it.

I think you are taking on far too much responsibility for this - he chose to contact her and he chose to lie about it.

You cannot fix him by breaking yourself.

They must have had prior contact which he has kept from you. He didn't just rack up with a fancy going to x with me.

He has planned this and hidden it for days/weeks.

Depression does not excuse his behaviour.

Bendaroo
it takes 2 to make a marriage- you are right.
Maybe he went seeking the OW when he felt you cold shouldered him. But the reason you cold shouldered him was because you felt you couldn't cope any more with his depression and his suicidal thoughts.

He's obviously not easy to live with is he?

Fundemental to this is whether you can trust him again.

That is something you need to work on with your own counselling.

Trust is like faith- it's something you deicde to do, or have. You either have to take that risk and trust him- or you don't.

It's only hindsight that will tell you whether that was a good or bad choice.

It's also a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: children who are trusted by their parents tend to behave in a way that rewards that trust- it's the same with partners. If you don' t trust him and communicate that, then he will feel he's damned if he does- and damned if he doesn't- so he may as well do it anyway.

You need to explore how much you want to try if he is willing to openly admit to his baggage- or whether you have had enough.

This is what you started saying at the top of this thread.

It's your choice.

People here can say" leave the bastard" a hundred times, point the finger at his dodgy behaviour etc etc. But we are not in your shoes. it's a web forum. it's not real life- so your decision has to be yours, not a bunch of strangers all with their .our own baggage and experiences.

Pursue your own counselling and ask him to do the same.

Becaroo please take no heed of any inferences that you've caused your husband to be untrustworthy or to contact the OW.

Always remember that your husband is an adult with personal responsibility and that your relationship and your actions do not govern all his impulses.

Other men with different personalities and characters in the same situation would regain trust by being trustworthy and would get some professional help for their suicidal feelings, rather than relying solely on their wives.

Bendaroo, if you take the rap for being a bit pissed off with your husband being a direct cause of him contacting the OW then you might as well give up right now

because the next time you don't immediately see to his emotional "needs" he will go straight off and find another who will

that's not a marriage

that's him as centre of the cock universe, and you with MUG stamped on your forehead

Why does he need to catch up with her?

Catch up with what exactly?

The spent inappropriate time together and developed feelings. Catching up = hand-wringing about how they wish things were different or have they both really got rid of any feelings and it is genuinely innocent but the OP's DH doesn't want to mention it as it will bring memories back for the OP and he doesn't want that. They could genuinely have had no contact for 2 years and just got back in touch to talk about travelling together.

I think it can be dangerous to always assume the man is cheating/ in the wrong just because he has done wrong before. People can change.

JustFabulous the OP has said her husband has been in contact with this woman at other times in the past 2 years.

If you were in the OP's position and your husband had told a woman he knew was in love with him that he fancied her too and you'd found texts between them that suggested their relationship was more than friendship, would you really be okay with him inviting her on an overnight trip and not telling you about it?

Would you assume that the only reason he had for keeping that from you was that he didn't want to bring back bad memories for you?

I missed that they had been in contact throughout the time. In what form and how often?

Is the trip an over-nighter?

It isn't relevant what I would think or feel.

Im glad I said that thing about the timeline because I had it niggling away at me and I don't think it's a coincidence that he emailed after our bad weekend and Monday night. BUT you are all right that that does not reduce his responsibility to our marriage and to me to be honest and trustworthy. The wierd thing is I might not have got there without it being pointed out to me. Like it's staring me in the face but I can't see it clearly because I'm too involved.

During counselling he did agree to have no non-work contact with her. But they still worked together then so it meant nothing really except no after work drinks unless in a group. Then she moved jobs then he did. But they share people in common and normally it would be reasonable to 'catch up' with such a person even a year after leaving. If you got on with them well, why not?

But obviously this is different. For example one of the lies I noticed a year ago - very insignificant on it's own - was I asked him how he had given her the news that he was leaving his job. He said someone must have sent her a text as she knew when he next bumped into her in the corridor. Pretty ok I thought. Then I saw an email text from her saying 'thanks for coming to tell me you were leaving. I appreciated that'. So the friendship was special enough that he felt he needed to tell her face to face that he was going, but he pretended otherwise. See the type of trivial lying thats been going on?

And yes he is difficult to live with. But also good in many ways and there are a million things I would miss about him.

So his official position is that he hasn't in the past 2 years had any out-of-work contact with her then?

Would you feel differently if he told you the truth about the going to see her to say he was leaving, if he told you he had suggested to her they travel together, etc etc. Is it the lying or the doing it full stop?

How would it be if you confronted him outright by asking him if he's ever had any contact with her since the previous business. He'll lie, presumably, and say no, so you then look him right in the eye and ask him if he's sure about that. Say you have reason to believe that's not true (and refuse to divulge your source, saying it's not relevant. Do not be swayed on that) and see where you go from there.

Actually, have read all the inbetween posts since I was last up to speed. Seems it's more complex than that, sorry.

No Beth that hasn't quite been his position. So he has told me about the odd few drinks after work where she was there amongst several others - so we both knew they have non-work chat/contact - and other few bits of contact - like her brother had a baby and he told me (as I'd meet her brother and wife once). Also they share a non-work interest, this sport, so I know they have contact about that.

I haven't 'policed' this matter and I suppose I would say I'm being reasonable not expecting him to totally cut off all contact in a very forced way and in return I'd expected him to be equally mature about it and not abuse that trust by having as little and as bland contact as possible. Does that make sense?

I have been where you are and it hurts. The suspicion, the checking, the not knowing 100%. Personally, I needed to know what was going on before I could make a decision. I couldn't have ended the marriage on a suspicion. Even then I gave him a second chance. You are in a horrible limbo period of not knowing.

One thing I will say is that the situation you are in is unstable. It will change. He will change it or she will or you will. But it will change. If you are not ready to make a change, then you aren't. I wasn't for months and being told I was a coward and letting him walk all over me was terrible for my self esteem. Friends mean to help but that sort of talk didn't help me.

How about this? Prepare for the worst. See a lawyer. Just in case it comes to that. I did. I had the papers sent to a friend's house but just getting the lay of the land was good.

Then find out. Snoop, hunt for evidence. There will be some.

For what it's worth, mine had had a bad childhood with an abusive mother. But how could I help that? I couldn't repair the past. My misery didn't make him happier. A bad childhood isn't a get out of jail card for every bit of bad behaviour you choose.

Good luck. From the bottom of my heart, I wish you luck. Whatever you do, it won't be easy. Good luck.

In other words, you trusted him and he has abused that trust

It makes perfect sense to me

Justfab - if he told me his plans for chatting to her or meeting her at least I could have some input into what I felt comfortable with. So about the train thing, if he said 'bendaroo I'd like to catch up with xx to see how a few work people are getting on, how her brother is doing, what she thinks about recent sports news - how would you feel if we got the train together?' I could then say 'well I find that a bit threatening after all we've been through. But how about we agree that I'll be ok with that and not go cold on you for days afterwards, if you agree to keep it low key, friendly only, no mixed messages to her and phone me once you get off the train before the match, then after match' etc etc. So I would have set boundaries around what I found acceptable. We've done that in the past.

But christ I have been so fucking reasonable about this type of thing over the years that he should know he could expect that this time. so why didn't he say that? My only answer is to think it's because he doesn't want cosy little boundaries and lots of phone contact with me - he wants to be left in peace.