Should I give a third chance?

[bendaroo]

I am in a real dilemma and can't easily talk to RL friends at the moment - kids at home for holidays, DH at home in the evening.

My DH had a friendship with a colleague two years ago which I was not happy about as he told lies and kept the extent of their friendship from me. (I knew about the lies because I looked on his phone and texts did not tally with what I was being told.) However he always maintained it wasn't physical. but during this period, he diminished my feelings and made me feel unreasonable and overly jealous. During a year of couple counselling, things improved and we agreed to keep things open and for there to be no more secrets. So I feel I gave him a second chance.

But I have just found more evidence of him agreeing to meet up with this person again and therefore lying as he has not told me himself. It's not a betrayal in a sexual way, I don't think, but by agreeing to travel to a sports event together he is going against all the work we did in counselling. I don't think I can trust him after finding this out and I don't think I can stay married to someone I can't trust. But we have 2 children and I'm in bits at the thought of splitting up.

He doesn't know that I know by the way so I'm keeping things ticking along as normal which is also really hard. Not sure what to do??

[fedupofnamechanging]

I do agree with counting that you would be better to face it head on. Trying to put a 'normal' face on, with all this stuff bubbling under the surface is just dragging out the inevitable and making you stressed.

[countingfriends]

It's cliche but there is a lot of truth in the line "Feel the fear and do it anyway".

You need to face your fears, then conquer them.

The worst scenario (I assume) for you is that he wants out of the marriage, has possibly resurrected an affair (I doubt it- I think he's just dabbling in a wishy washy way- not serious), and that you will separate.

If you can face your worst fears- and know you will cope whatever- then the battle is half won.

[AThingInYourLife]

"Dh agreed at time though mumbled about 'keeping tabs' and he has since been cross about it, upset that I control him like a dog on a leash."

This is what I mean when I say he has been wasting your time for 2 years

He did the absolute minimum to keep you in the marriage, but did it begrudgingly and with no sense of care for you.

He has never been sorry for what he put you through.

There's no Catholic guilt here. That would require honest contrition.

In fact he's done a false confession - done a show of remorse to receive your absolution but with no intention of accepting that he had done wrong.

He neither had the balls to stand up for his friendship and let you fight your own corner or the integrity to admit that this friendship was not fair to you.

He just acted out what you asked of him with no feeling behind it.

It was a total and utter waste of your time and treated you with utter disdain.

Whatever you do next has to have a different outcome than more talking with a man who will not talk honestly.

[bendaroo]

I'm listening. I'm thinking. I'm building up to something that I can't do as easily as other people would. I'm taking my time and I can understand that other people might not get that, but it feels like a 'me' way to go about this.

I need to be prepared - this thread, my counsellor, my friend. Next week I can chat to my other two close friends when they're back from their holiday and I have a second counselling session. Maybe a solicitor but that's it then. I feel ok about my way of doing it - well ok-ish. It is hard to pretend all is fine but that's my way so it feels part of it to me.

I do take a lot from this thread though I hate feeling so exposed. thank you for your comments, even those that are hard to read.

Yes my dh is 10yrs older than me. I don't think I come across in RL as someone lacking in confidence, but my friends would say I was indecisive about everything.

[JustFabulous]

With regards to you "keeping tabs" on him, that is the consequence of him dicking about. A friend is kept on a very tight leash by his wife, because he has cheated on her more than once. Consequences because of their actions so they have no right to moan about it.

I feel for you OP as I sense you want more concrete evidence of him misbehaving so that you can walk away knowing you haven't been unreasonable rather than you want there to be something so you can leave him.

[countingfriends]

I don't know how you control your anger TBH.
Do you ever show anger?

Both you and your DH are living a lie- hiding your true emotions.

Sorry- I know that is harsh.

In some ways you are colluding with his deceit by not confronting him- but also by not being true to yourself. You have all these emotions spinning round your head but you seem afraid to show them.

Part of your counselling should be to focus on why- what are you afraid of?

Is it his reaction?
Being on your own?
Finding out the truth?

You need to examine what holds you back from expressing your feelings.

[bendaroo]

It's true that this would be easier if there was concrete evidence of a sexual relationship.

But most of all I wish this had never happened and we could go back to 3 years ago.

Counting - the last lot of counselling identified that I cannot express anger. I grew up in a house where there were no arguments, no smacking, no shouting. My mother was in charge and my dad went along with everything in a cheerful accepting way. It was a happy childhood but I didn't learn to deal with anger normally. Funny as my mother still rules the roost, I love her to bits and I go along with her plan in most things because she makes good plans so that's fine, but also I suppose I hate to disrupt her plan! I do sometimes and she chunters but then is fine but the easiest way is to just go along. That trait in me has always driven my dh mad! He feels I need counselling to stand up to my mother more - he doesn't see the irony in that though, that I'd end up being tougher to live with for him.

[bendaroo]

We are living a lie. And my dh is going to ask me what's wrong any time as it's clear I'm not happy. I'm going to have to confront this as soon as he does or the lie will just take on a life of his own.

I'm circling him unnaturally at the moment - hiding behind the busyness of half term holidays.

[BethFairbright]

I understand why you want to do things at your own pace. If it helps at all, you don't come across to me as clingy or lacking in confidence at all. You sound like someone who knows her own worth and who puts a premium on truth in relationships.

But herein lies a problem.

I've got no problem with people snooping for a brief period if their instincts are telling them something's amiss and they sense they are being lied to. As long as when they've got that evidence, they do something with it.

So I think this situation has been made worse by you not confronting this head-on when you first realised he'd broken the agreement not to text her. Maybe even earlier than that when you first started snooping, found texts that didn't match up with what he was telling you about their relationship and you didn't confront him with that evidence.

I think long periods of secret surveillance not only damage relationships, they damage the snooper too. Just as lies damage relationships and damage the liar.

I think you've been snooping for so long now a kind of paralysis has set in, where you feel you can't act because you'd have to show your hand. So there's now dishonesty and secrets on both sides.

Please don't interpret that as me being critical of you snooping in the first place. I'm not and I think that faced with so many bare-faced lies and denials, you needed to do that for your own sanity. But I think the prolonged nature of it and not doing anything with what you found, has caused some damage.

If you decide after counselling that you're still open to rebuilding your relationship, I don't think it's ever going to work unless you're truly honest yourself about the evidence you've got and how you obtained it. Obviously I'd say the same of him too. He needs to admit to lying to you and needs to be far more honest about this relationship and what it was.

I think whatever you decide, stop doing things that compromise your own integrity because damaging yourself is never worth it.

[JustFabulous]

If you don't love him anymore that is enough of a reason to end the marriage.

I took an ex back. During those few weeks he did nothing wrong but I ended it as I realised I didn't feel the same anymore. I know it is nothing like your situation. I just wanted to offer support and understanding.

[countingfriends]

Yes, I agree with all of that except...

anyone who cannot express anger and goes along with other people to keep the peace does so out of fear.

Fear of not being liked, fear of being rejected, fear of taking responsibility for their own emotions.

What this means is that you hide who you really are.

OP- I know this will sound harsh ( again- sorry) but being a compliant person does often mean that people treat you disrespectfully. I don't know why but it happens all the time.

I am certain that your DH senses he has the upper hand- due to your lack of visible anger.

Given your parenting- each of you- him with an abusive father who beat him ( so he reacts with anger and is a bit of a bully in relationships) and your inability to show anger, it's not surprsing that the dynamics in your marriage are as they are now.

It's all very well having self-respect and confidence in your head- but if your actions don't show this then you may as well not have those attributes.

You might find, if you feel like pursuing it ever ,that CBT would help more than counselling- because you could do with some really practical help to help change your behaviour so it matches what's going on in your head.

[BethFairbright]

I think being a compliant person leads to bullies treating that person disrespectfully. That shouldn't include your husband or wife though. Exploiting someone's weakness is always the exploiter's fault and I don't think we should lose sight of that.

I've got a friend who is the most compliant person I know. She gets trampled on by various friends who know she won't say no. The friends who love her would never do that and if we did it would be exploitative.

[bendaroo]

Couldn't it just mean I'm a laid back person who is easy to be with? I always thought that about myself. Not that it was a psychological flaw though I can see that when a situation requires anger it is debilitating to be unable to do that.

And yes Beth I very much wish I had tackled each inconsistent email at the time. But I feared that he'd be even more clever about hiding things so I'd be left even more in the dark.

[BethFairbright]

I wouldn't concentrate too much on defence behaviours because they are there for a good reason. I can understand why, if you've felt bullied by your husband, you've adopted a 'keep the peace' stance. The point is though that a relationship should be a safe harbour to raise conflicts and grievances without the other person trying to win at all costs or expressing anger inappropriately.

Instead I'd concentrate on why you've tolerated this situation for so long without forcing the real issues. If it's because you thought he'd get angry, or would lie to you- then why would you put up with that in a relationship anyway?

As far as you can from this point onwards, I'd try to remain true to yourself. I get the feeling that you're not someone who's naturally secretive and that this prolonged cat and mouse game hasn't sat well with your character.

[countingfriends]

Ther's easy to live with and laid back- and there's being afraid to speak your mind. Very different.

If you were ladi back on this you would not be snooping.

You'd be taking the line "Well he's still here, so I assume he's happy and there's not an issue unless he says so."

Read your last post again.

Spot the word fear.

You react- or rather don't out of fear.

It's also an illogical fear: if you discovered something he was hiding, would you even be together any more so that he hid more stuff? Doubt it.

How much hiding do you intend to accept before you start talking to him- properly talking?

[countingfriends]

But I feared that he'd be even more clever about hiding things so I'd be left even more in the dark

So are you saying that you behaved in a dishonest way yourself ( dishonest to your true feelings) so that you would not expose yourself to even more deception ?

And would you be happy to tolerate a marriage where you were constantly fearful that he was the more duplicitous?

This is why I say I doubt your self respect because you seem to be on the back foot all the time.

.

[bendaroo]

I don't quite understand that first question Counting.

Each lie was so insignificant I couldn't admit to them because I would then be unable to have any insight into what was going on. Each one was ambiguous even so he could have argued it meant nothing.

No I couldn't tolerate that type of marriage. I just want a relationship where there is openness and honesty. I could cope with my dh saying he fancied someone else - that seems normal in a LTR. But then you deal with it openly as a couple and but boundaries around it. He was never that keen on boundaries or being open - again he'd see boundaries as equal to controlling

[countingto10]

It's ironic that he accuses you of being controlling when he is doing a very good job of controlling you.......

These are the very issues that should have been explored in the joint counselling. My DH called me controlling but all I was doing is trying to control the little bit of my life that I could control, it was all out of being insecure in the relationship and as our counsellor pointed out, HIS behaviour made me very insecure. DH also admitted further down the line in one of our many heart to hearts about our marriage and the affair, that he was by far the more controlling. Little things can be very controlling eg forgetting things like appointments etc that mean a lot to you but not too them, even having to work late can be construed as controlling especially when they have their own business, it's making sure their needs are met first and not caring how it impacts on you (or knowing how much it impacts on you therefore being controlling). Hope that makes some sense - I am not as eloquent as the other Counting but speak from a similar position to you, ie being afraid to confront, being controlled, insecure etc.

You need to do things at your own pace when you feel able to deal with it.

[BethFairbright]

I don't think the content of their messages was as important as the fact that they were in secret contact at all and that he lied about that. I get the feeling that if you'd confronted him about that issue alone, he would have counter-attacked that he 'had to' lie because you were so paranoid about this friendship. But he himself agreed to not having contact and to tell you if there was any, so that counter-attack could have been easily rebutted. You were extremely reasonable and accommodating of the fact that some contact would be unavoidable while they worked together. You were even amenable to him socialising with her, as long as others were there. There was no reason to lie about contact therefore.

[BethFairbright]

No reason apart from the obvious one, of course- that he still wanted a relationship with her.

The other reason could be that if he's a controlling and angry man (and I agree with countingto10) he feels powerful by having secrets. Keeping secrets is a very passive-aggressive means of controlling and punishing someone without them realising it. Being fair, you need to apply that to your own secrets too but I think yours is very much a response behaviour rather than a character trait in itself. I do think the prolonged surveillance could be your way of punishing him for your own inertia and fear of confrontation. The silent brooding is much the same. Only you know if you tend to deal with conflicts by silent punishment and always did, or whether this is a behaviour that's come about in the last 2 years.

[countingfriends]

I just want a relationship where there is openness and honesty

Ahem!

Why don't you start with you?

You've stooped to his level of being sly- looking at his messages etc.

I understand completely why. But now that you have that information you are putting on a front and being anything but open and honest about a) your own behaviour and b) your feelings on all of this.

it takes two.

[bendaroo]

You're right Beth absolutely right about what he'd have said.

Thanks Countingto10 the controlling thing was addressed in counselling. But if it's deeply ingrained in personality it doesn't go away. The thing that irked me was that in counselling I offered the same boundaries as I asked for. I said I would maintain contact when was I was away, that he could overhear any conversation between me and any of my work colleagues or see my phone. I have no problem with him being 'controlling' in that way and that kind of took the steam out of that arguement but with him there is always another argument round the corner.

Interesting that an old boss of mine said to a promotion panel that one of my biggest strengths was my integrity. When I went home and told dh he said I had far greater strengths and integrity wasn't very important at all. Perhaps he felt threatened himself.

[countingfriends]

Can you answer one simple quesion?

When your DH comes home tonight, what is stopping you tackling this topic?

What are the barriers you have put up in your own mind?

Why are you delaying and saying you will do it when you have consulted other friends etc?

How would that change anything?

[bendaroo]

You're right Countingfriends I need to stop this lying and snooping and retain whatever dignity I have left. I don't need to anymore, I do agree with everyone that has said there is enough here to have that confrontation. I just need to reach that stage. Tonight might be best then I can stop this horrid feeling going on and get it dealt with.

[countingfriends]

If you don't feel too silly doing it, write down what you want to say and even lock yourself away for a bit and rehearse it. Be prepared. You're a good person- you don't need to hide behind snooping etc- you need to be honest.