Should I give a third chance?

[bendaroo]

I am in a real dilemma and can't easily talk to RL friends at the moment - kids at home for holidays, DH at home in the evening.

My DH had a friendship with a colleague two years ago which I was not happy about as he told lies and kept the extent of their friendship from me. (I knew about the lies because I looked on his phone and texts did not tally with what I was being told.) However he always maintained it wasn't physical. but during this period, he diminished my feelings and made me feel unreasonable and overly jealous. During a year of couple counselling, things improved and we agreed to keep things open and for there to be no more secrets. So I feel I gave him a second chance.

But I have just found more evidence of him agreeing to meet up with this person again and therefore lying as he has not told me himself. It's not a betrayal in a sexual way, I don't think, but by agreeing to travel to a sports event together he is going against all the work we did in counselling. I don't think I can trust him after finding this out and I don't think I can stay married to someone I can't trust. But we have 2 children and I'm in bits at the thought of splitting up.

He doesn't know that I know by the way so I'm keeping things ticking along as normal which is also really hard. Not sure what to do??

[sarahseashell]

OP you are taking all the blame here (checking phone, potentially ending the marriage) when it's him who has done the blameworthy things - having a secret relationship and continuing to lie to you about it.

You have to do what's right for you but how is he going to change here? You've already given him 2 years. I do know how hard it is, having walked away from a cheating spouse several years ago with dcs, and yes it was very hard for the first couple of years, but the peace of mind you get after that is well worth it and being alone is a million times better than trying to have a relationship with an untrustworthy person, it really is. Dcs are ok and it was for the best in our case. I never would have believed that beforehand or at the time. Good luck whatever you decide, but remember he created this situation, not you.

[bendaroo]

You all talk much sense and I can take strength from the fact that other people have come out the other side.

I'm not scared for my safety but I hate confrontation and my dh tends to be a bully so will not concede a point but goes on and on until I go quiet/back down. The last time I went through this I prepared by a discussion over what constitutes unreasonable behaviour with a solicitor which gave me back up and a Relate session which again gave me strength by validating my upset and concerns.

I obviously need this type of backing so in a sense this thread is it this time and I have Relate next week and I might phone a solicitor about finances. These are my ducks in a row!

The deflection is true and dh is an expert at talking/arguing his way out of things. He would have made a very good barrister but seems to have been a rubbish dh.

I just need to tell him it's over, that I know there are ongoing lies, that he can be as upset as he likes about the infringement of his personal
space but that my needs for honesty and love are not being met and in my view he is incapable of meeting them in the future.

I need some sleep tonight as I've been awake since 4 but I'm getting nearer doing something all the time.

Thank you for all helpful comments

[HappyHalloweenMotherFucker]

Keep posting, bendaroo, we can help you through it to a certain extent

however, if you are at all ambivalent then you will allow yourself to be talked/shouted down yet again


tbh, unless you are at the point of simply not caring what he says and does then I see it going the way it went last time

have a really good think about you are going to handle it differently this time

we can help you with suggestions, but unless you are prepared to follow through on everything you say, it's a losing battle

[HappyHalloweenMotherFucker]

*how

[HappyHalloweenMotherFucker]

it can be done, btw

[Countingfriends]

OP In answer to your question- should you give him another chance, then I'd say yes.

When people say you should end your marriage because he has lied to you- I'd say this: it's possible to get over these things if you both want to.

He hasn't lied- he's been evasive.

My bet is this: he has/had a soft spot for this woman but it was not an affair- it was an office crush/flirtation.

You took it seriously which is why you sought couples counselling. You felt the friendship or whatever it was, was inappropriate. There is no evidence there was.

The bottom line is you are trying to work out if your DH has been or is likely to be unfaithful.

Are you going to end your marriage and put your kids through a divorce before you even talk to him?

There may be a simple explanation and that is that there is absolutely nothing in this- but he knows you will think there is - so he has been evasive.

There seems to be a huge gap between what you perceive as happening and what he thinks is happening.

Is there any way you canb oth meet inthe middle and discuss?

[Xales]

He knew it was an issue for OP so he decides not to tell her and be evasive to protect her/their marriage? I don't agree I think that telling OP he is going to see 2 men and 1 woman when asked after deliberately asking and arranging to go with this other woman is way more than evasive.

I would think any thick idiot after an entire year of counselling would realise that this was bloody important to their partner and not be evasive in the hopes they weren't caught out about it! the friendship was inappropriate as it affected their marriage negatively in some way rightly or wrongly.

When he comes back and doesn't tell her he went there on the train with this woman and spent time with her that he arranged it is that being evasive then or lying? Or just not telling OP to protect her?

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Countingfriends - "When people say you should end your marriage because he has lied to you- I'd say this: it's possible to get over these things if you both want to."

Thing is this is not the first time he has lied/evaded the truth. He has previously promised to stop the evasion and be truthful/open

He is repeatedly hiding his relationship with this woman

[BethFairbright]

There's loads of evidence that this relationship was inappropriate. In whose world is telling a woman you think is in love with you that you fancy her too, appropriate? Or sending her texts that conveyed an intimacy that he'd denied to his wife? Those were lies, not evasion.

And why would a man who knew his wife had been upset by such a threatening friendship, invite that friend out and then fail to mention she was going to be in the party? That was a lie, not evasion.

You can only get over lying if the liar admits that's what he was doing.

But it sounds to me that all that's the least of it. The OP feels bullied by her husband and she's said he will never admit to being wrong.

I think they've spent 2 years trying to 'meet in the middle' but the husband in this case won't budge, or admit he's done anything wrong. It's pointless staying married to a bully who lies and never admits it.

[HappyHalloweenMotherFucker]

Lying by omission is still lying

Evasion, when you have been caught bang to rights about the same thing and made promises you had no intention of keeping, is lying

[bendaroo]

I think you might have me a bit wrong there HappyHalloween, but that's ok as it hard to portray a full situation on MN.

Once I decide what I'm doing, what to say and what outcome I want I'll stick to it. I might have to listen to a load of crap in the meantime and go quiet because it seems the only way of finishing an argument but I will not change my outcome easily.

The last time I was fully prepared to have couple counselling as the outcome. I was taken by surprise by my dh being so prepared to go along with it but without it, we would have been finished at that point. But I was always prepared to give things a second go particularly with kids in tow.

But this time, I know I'm playing with the dilemma of a third chance and staying together but it's not working for me. Not at all. What is working is hearing from other people that they feel the lying is enough reason to end it. I obviously haven't fully trusted my own judgement on that one, I need that support for some reason. So thank you to everyone here. I am getting clarity which is massive for me as my heads mashed by this today

[bendaroo]

Sorry didn't see all those posts after HappyHalloween.

I think he's lying not just being evasive.

[fedupofnamechanging]

You asked him outright who he was planning to see and he deliberately didn't tell you. And he was the one who initiated this meet up with OW (for want of a better term).

That is way more than being evasive. And what does evasive mean anyway, if not lying by omission, which is still lying!

[HappyHalloweenMotherFucker]

Glad to hear it, bendaroo

[AThingInYourLife]

"Are you going to end your marriage and put your kids through a divorce before you even talk to him?"



They've spent a year in couples counselling because of this very issue.

How much more talking do you think needs to happen?

You were right when you said

"it's possible to get over these things if you both want to."

The OP wanted to. She has given it her best shot for 2 years.

She had been met with intransigence and outright lies.

He doesn't want to "get over" this. He won't even admit the problem.

He expects the OP to put up with a marriage where she is routinely lied to and disrespected while he gets to do as he pleases.

She has every right to reject his crappy offer.

[Countingfriends]

Athing

"Are you going to end your marriage and put your kids through a divorce before you even talk to him?"

I thought it was obvious that I meant the latest incident- not what happened a year or more ago.

[bendaroo]

I am going to talk to him about this. But I can't imagine what he could possibly say to reassure me that he would be honest in the future.

I would always be doubting him if we stay together. The improvements we both made in our relationship through the counselling were massive in terms of communication, intimacy, fun and parenting. There was so much positive change. That makes this all the harder, because dh put in loads of effort and then trashed it all with this meeting up plan. Why would he be so stupid and short sighted? Part of me doesn't quite believe it after he was so distraught during the last crisis. That really seemed genuine.

He had depression for that whole phase and part of me wonders whether he was depressed because he was lying and hated himself for being that way. He is also depressed now again although gone back onto ADs.

[bendaroo]

Thanks Matilda I have friends I could tell but like me they're busy on half term holidays etc. I will though, next week.

I text one friend but it's a bit complex via text!

[AThingInYourLife]

The "latest incident" is just a continuation of the problem that brought them to counselling.

He never stopped the problematic relationship and he never stopped lying.

What more can there possibly be to say other than more promises that at this stage have no credibility?

It takes a special kind of liar to go through counselling for a year being dishonest throughout.

Advice to talk it through is pointless. It's been done and it failed. It failed because he used counselling as a diversionary tactic (more lies).

This time the outcome has to be something more bothersome to him than an opportunity to lie to a 3rd party.

Even if the marriage could be saved, it won't be unless he can be shocked out of his complacency and habitual dishonesty.

[PaintedInRed]

Could you suggest tagging along with him to this event? Tell him you will get a sitter and go with him as you need a day out too? Or if it's something you would never go to, perhaps suggest getting the train with him and then going shopping whilst he is at this event.
It would give you a chance to see his reaction, (panic, fear etc) and also a chance for him to come clean about meeting her, rather than you having to say you found the email?...

[fedupofnamechanging]

I think that if you tag along, he will just text OW to cancel meeting up with her and you will have lost the opportunity to tackle this.

Although you would be able to witness his initial reaction to the suggestion - am not sure how much that will help you though. He might panic, which will hurt you, or he might try and put you off, which will also hurt you, or he might handle it with enthusiasm and just cancel the ow later, which will also hurt you, because it will demonstrate his accomplishment at telling lies.

You can't spend your whole life policing him, either by checking up on him or tagging along, so he physically can't see ow. you can't be with him 24/7 and if you have to be, in order to keep him on the straight and narrow, then that's no kind of relationship at all.

I think that you gave him a very clear choice 2 years ago and if you forgive him now, then you are giving permission for him never to be any different, because he will have gotten away with it once again, while still keeping his marriage.

You deserve much more than you are getting in this relationship.

[bendaroo]

Thanks. I feel I do deserve more, I'm just wrecked with all this and what me and kids will have to go through.

I can't just get a train ticket as the event is in another country. An afternoon thing which as it finishes early evening means an overnight stay - that was why I was going to get a private detective to see if they went into a hotel together. I've no idea what it would cost but whatever it is, I can't afford it.

And the event is too far away - in December - I can't keep this falseness up that long.

Yes AThing I think he has been lying to me all along. I just happened to see one email exchange. I'm sure others have been deleted. And although it was chatty, not flirtatious, they know each other well enough to know they need to communicate blandly.

I think I need the kids back at school next week and I'll deal with it then. Just can't see a way back from here.

[Countingfriends]

I think some of the responses here are black and white.

OP I think the fact you say your DH has depression now is very significant- don't you?

I'm not taking sides with your DH by any means but I do think some posts here are cyniccal to put it lightly.

Rather than it " taking a special kind of liar" to behave like this, there is another explanation: that the DH was fully committed to the process of counselling but over recent weeks something has happened which has thrown him off course.

There is no evidence that your DH was cynically going to counselling and making an effort but at the same time carrying on with this woman.

I think it is highly significant that you mention now ( and only now??) that your DH has depression. I'm no expert on depression but from what I do understand it is either a reaction to life events, or a life-long chemical reaction condition in the brain which comes and goes. In either case, medication can blunt emotions and depressives can behave in ways that seem illogical.

I think you should think hard on when his dperession began, whether he is really unhappy but can't express that, and is medicating to help him cope with his life rather than make some tough decisions.

Maybe - to be reallly blunt- he isn't happy with you or life overall and this sudden re-connection with this woman is his way of ducking out of facing up to whatever he is feeling.