Should I give a third chance?

[bendaroo]

I am in a real dilemma and can't easily talk to RL friends at the moment - kids at home for holidays, DH at home in the evening.

My DH had a friendship with a colleague two years ago which I was not happy about as he told lies and kept the extent of their friendship from me. (I knew about the lies because I looked on his phone and texts did not tally with what I was being told.) However he always maintained it wasn't physical. but during this period, he diminished my feelings and made me feel unreasonable and overly jealous. During a year of couple counselling, things improved and we agreed to keep things open and for there to be no more secrets. So I feel I gave him a second chance.

But I have just found more evidence of him agreeing to meet up with this person again and therefore lying as he has not told me himself. It's not a betrayal in a sexual way, I don't think, but by agreeing to travel to a sports event together he is going against all the work we did in counselling. I don't think I can trust him after finding this out and I don't think I can stay married to someone I can't trust. But we have 2 children and I'm in bits at the thought of splitting up.

He doesn't know that I know by the way so I'm keeping things ticking along as normal which is also really hard. Not sure what to do??

Has his GP suggested why he is depressed?

Why did he decide he was depressed- what were his symtpoms?

Has he been offered CBT or counselling? This is now accepted as the best initial route rather than putting someone on pills.

The reason I'm asking is that I think you have a very confused DH who is in denial about his emotions- maybe not able to be honest with you, himself or a counsellor who sees you jointly.

I'm sure this doesn't help you- but depression is a mental health issue. Living with someone who is depressed is a challenge and perhaps you both need to be really honest about what's going on between you- and in his head- before you resort to a private detec.

His anger when you corner him is a really obvious response from a man who doesn't like being put onthe spot or having his feelings exposed or examined.

Whether tou have had enough and walk away now is your choice- but it might be worth trying to talk without anger to get to the bottom of what is really going on in your marriage.

OW and OM are often escapes from reality. Have you got the love or patience to try to bring him back to reality?

Thanks Counting. It is significant but I can't work out how.

The depression was first diagnosed during the friendship phase with this woman 2 yrs ago. His behaviour towards me and kids was awful, lots of anger and depression suggested by our counsellor and treated by GP. Things improved considerably.

Throughout the counselling and subsequent year he has been on ADs and doing really well. Although I think there were small lies going on, he wasn't carrying on with her at all and infact I saw evidence that he was distancing himself from her. She suggested drinks after work, he declined - that sort of thing.

But then his anger/irritability came back after he stoppedADs and after one bad weekend I checked his phone and saw email (having notfelt a need to check for ages). So his behaviour got worse then he re-established contact with this woman. After I confronted him about his behaviour going downhill, he agreed to see GP and is now back on ADs.

Maybe he is very unhappy with me but can't say. That could be true as he has an unrational fear of divorce, not living with kids and his family are Catholics who would not cope well with us splitting up.

He won't try a talking therapy. ADs really help.

I think his main symptoms are anger (he seems most angry eith himself) and lack of interest/joy from life. He has felt suicidal but says those feelings aren't there when he's on the ADs. I am worried about what he might do once this is all out in the open.

Partly that's why I'm seeing the counsellor on my own - I need advice as he is fragile and in a sense needs protecting.

I do feel for you- honestly.

I can only look on this from the outside and from what you have said your DH seems to be a man whose parenting (Catholic) is giving him problems.

He comes over from what you have said as someone who is utterly torn- but cannot be true to himself or those around him.

It's very much chicken & egg - as you have spotted.

Was he unhappy at home so he sought comfort in a flirtation ( boosts his ego, deflects making a decision about his marriage)- OR has the flirtation caused him to be angry and guilty?

There sure is a lot of anger and guilt from somewhere and you are bearing the brunt of it!

This OW sounds predatory. I do think though that she recognsies he is "weak" because she seems to be pursuing him when he is down and liable to falter.

I wonder if you have ever thought of contacting her and asking her to back off?

I'm not saying you ought to but if she is someone you know a little it might be worth telling her that you have both invested heavily in trying to make the marriage work.

I know this is hard- but if you can maybe you could detach your emotions a little and see your DH as someone who is ill- which he is. You may decide that you don't want to be part of his " therapy" while he sorts his head out or you might feel that at this point it's worth another shot.

But Isee him as a man with huge baggage who is not able to be honest with himself and in the meantime is using a friendship with this woman as a cop out from his family.

The question is- why?

The fact that he won't try a talking therpay speaks volumes ( haha)

Of course pills help- they help him avoid taking responsibility for his life and emotions. They blunt his emotions- like drink would for an alcoholic.

He is afraid of speaking the truth.

He does not want to be honest.

(But he did have ayear of counselling with you- so what was that all about????)

You will never get anywhere with him unless he talks to you, a counsellor, someone.

If I were you, I'd insist on him seeing a counsellor or whatever it takes as a condition of going forward- or I wouldn't stay.

"This OW sounds predatory. I do think though that she recognsies he is "weak" because she seems to be pursuing him when he is down and liable to falter."

There is nothing in any of bendaroo's posts that gives enough information to make any judgement at all on what kind of person she might be.

Given that the latest assignment was suggested by him, she must be a very skilled predator to have tricked him into arranging to meet her in another country with plenty of opportunity to have a shag later.

The idea of treating a cheater's infidelity as an illness which their wife can cure for them makes me a little boakey.

I would not contact ow and ask her to back off. She knows you exist and she doesn't give a fuck. A predatory woman is not going to back off. Besides, it makes you look weak.

She is not the real problem - she could be as predatory as she likes, but without consent from your husband she wouldn't get anywhere.

While I know that depression can make people think differently and can make people behave very selfishly, be careful that he doesn't use it as a very handy excuse for bad behaviour.

Thanks for your time.

I have tried over the years to push for counselling but I think like you say he is afraid to confront his past. His father beat him. He does not use that as an excuse, but I just know it from family stories. His sisters told me their mother used to try and intervene begging her husband to stop. All siblings have depression type problems (or alcohol) though they are not open about it.

I can't make him address this. It's not my job or my right to, surely? And I've had enough though I still love him. But I feel trapped as he is vulnerable.

You're right about her - predatory and I was warned of this by another female who worked with her but was a friend of mine. At the beginning, I actually did talk to her about the friendship. But I told her I knew they were friends and I was cool with that as I recognised that we all need friends and I wasn't threatened about it blah blah. She was visibly shocked and I was putting on a show as I wanted to bring it out into the open and watch her reaction.

AThing - it is just complex when there's a mental illness involved. It doesn't excuse things or mean I settle for less but does impact on the whole thing. I didn't mention earlier because I didn't want the thread to go off on one about MH issues. But I can't ignore that it's there.

Not just dh who needs protecting but my kids too.

Benderoo, he is treating your feelings with a lack of respect - the secrecy about the very thing that has been an issue for years shows contempt.

If or when you decide to split, please remember you don't need to explain or 'justify' yourself to anyone. (I noted in one of your posts that this was a reservation) You just say, "It wasn't working" and that will suffice.

Why should you put up with this?

I think that it is a really good idea to make seeking proper help an absolute, no negotiable requirement.

You are right, it is not your job to address this or to fix him - you can't. He has no right to make you live with him as things are and just put up with this kind of life. If his issues are turning him into a selfish man who feels entitled to behave as he pleases and lie to you about it, then he should absolutely get professional help to change this.

Refusal to do so, is him saying to you that he'll do as he wants and you can put up with it or not. I would choose not! If he utterly refuses to work on this, then I can't see you have any options but to end things.

I think I would make him leave and make possible return absolutely contingent on a) him getting professional help and b) cutting off all contact with ow. That might mean getting a different job, changing his phone number, not using fb etc and being completely open to you having all his passwords and access to his phone etc.

Remember, he has no right to get pissy that you looked at these things - the fact that you found him lying negates any right he had to be arsy over this. You have to be able to protect yourself.

I estimate that depression (or some kind of breakdown) is used to excuse around 90% of affairs.

That he seems to be depressed when he is carrying on his affair, and that his supposed depression is characterised by impatience and anger at home, doesn't convince me that there is a genuine mental health issue here.

Perhaps there is. You know him, so you are best placed to say.

Yes, its unusual form of depression which means he gets to go on days/nights out with another woman.

I wish you'd mentioned all this before- it totally changes the whole picture.

But- your Dh is enormously damaged: he was beaten as a child, there is dependency in the family ( on drink) he has all the guilt that Catholics often have.

Is it any wonder his head is totally fucked up?

He has HUGE issues which need professinal help. Anger is one of them.

I'm not a counsellor but have 3 very close friends who are- so we talk ( not about clients of course) but about issues which affect people.

Psychodynamic counselling takes people back to their childhood- and it's there that the foundations are laid for their adult personality and behaviour.

I would bet my last pound that your DH has excrutiatingly low self esteem, that he was "abused" as a child by a violent father, that he doesn't like himself, and that this OW ( she is almost an irrelevance) is just a distraction and ego boost.

If his childhood was also devoid of real love and affection, what role model has he had to help him be loving to you? If his parents love was conditional and not freely given- how is that affecting him now?

This is a huge minefield.

TBH I wouldn't waste any time thinking about the OW- she's not important- he's hardly a good catch is he at the moment?

What is missing from your marriage is true communication.

Could you make his seeking help a condition of staying together?

Does he say he loves you? Does he say he wants things to work?

Finally, you could see your GP and express your worries and ask if they could refer your DH for support- they have a duty to him to keep confidentiality but there is no harm in anyone living with a depressive consulting their GP ( assuming you have the same one?)

I didn't mention before specifically because I need to try and work out what 'normal' people do and how 'normal' relationships survive this type of thing.

Of course it clouds everything but it has for years and affects both our marriage and his relationship with our children. But I married him knowing he had a fucked up past ( perhaps I thought I could make it all ok for him) and knowing he could be an arsy shit at times. But I loved him and most of the time he was funny, loving, silly, kind - all thr things I wanted.

Don't know what to do now? His depression isn't debilitating that's the thing. He holds down a senior job, is doing well loosing weight, has cut down his own drinking to 2 or 3 glasses twice a week, he's managing well.

But there is this lie hanging there between us which I'm not sure I want to get past. But I'm a bit worried this is me grabbing this chance to end it rather than having the guts to say I don't want to be married to him anymore. I certainly couldn't face being the baddie in this situation as I don't feel comfortable in that position at all.

Whether you are using this as 'an excuse' or not - there is nothing wrong with saying you don't want to be married to him anymore.

It's a pretty big bloody excuse too. Its NOT normal to simply contact the woman you and your wife have been agonizing over for years and to arrange to meet her behind your back.

This arrangement to meet up, initiated by dh, kept a secret from me and actively covered up is enough to end our marriage. The rational part of me knows that.

But if the depression wasn't there in the background this would be simpler. I could deal with a split in a rational way.

With someone who has depression, nothing is rational or practical it's all emotional. My dh is very emotional. It's one of the things I loved about him because he can be very close, demonstrative, romantic. But it can also be destructive and he gets angry with himself, me, the situation.

He does need professional help and maybe we should separate while he addresses that. My fear is though that his MH would deteriorate without me and kids around to give him something to come home to.

But a little voice inside me says this is my only life, my only time being this age and I'm not happy in my marriage.

It might be too much to ask of you but...

affairs are often escapism as I've said before. They are a symptom of something not being right- either in the person who strays or the marriage.

yes, your Dh lied. No that wasn't good.

BUT- and it's a big but- does he love you enough to work on his demons?

Have you asked him?

What seems to be missing here is areally honest, no holds barred conversation with your DH about what he wants, how he feels, how you both work together at this - or not.

It's not your role to mother him or protect him from himself.

But the fact is he is no good to anyone if he doesn't address his issues.

he has to see this for himself.

Maybe you need an ultimatum, or at least a separation to make him see this is serious.

I'd really stop focusing on the flirtation- it's not important. what is important is what he feels for you- and you for him.

It really depends on how long you are going to give it. If his issues are addressed properly then he can changed and you would have a very different marriage. But he needs to acknowledge what he has done and be prepared to have a lot of counselling and do a lot of work on himself and put a hugh effort into the marriage, so that you, him and the DCs have a better life.

I do sympathise, my DH had an affair nearly 4 yrs ago, it was his self medication along with gambling, in response to depression, stresses of family, business, financial stuff etc. He had so many issues relating to his childhood which left him with severe self esteems issues, issues relating to lying (his default position as a mechanism to coping with his childhood and dysfunctional relationships with adults in the household) and ultimately, selfishness, entitlement and arrogance thrown into the mix too. It was very hard for him to deal with the man in the mirror, what he had done to his family etc. It took months of solo counselling for him to even begin to heal from his childhood. He has always had a weight issues (the only way his mother was allowed to show him love was by feeding him) and it was only this year that he has felt in a position mentally to deal with it properly as eating is also another form of his self medication. He lost 4 stone this year .

You need to work out if you want to give this marriage another chance, how long you are prepared to deal with it, your DH needs to know you will only give it another chance if he is prepared to deal with his demons properly. As I said to my DH at the time, he can run away from me, the DCs, the business but he can't runaway from himself........

Good luck, remember look at the actions of your DH, not what he says.

I'm not sure I would want to spend the rest of my life propping up someone who didn't appear to value me enough to try and 'fix' himself, so that he would stop treating me like shit, when in the throes of depression.

And that's assuming that it is the depression which is making him behave like this, rather than just being a lying cheat. Without professional input, how can you be sure it is depression, rather that just bad behaviour/attitude causing him to do this?

I'm no expert on depression, but he does know that his behaviour is wrong and unless he is prepared to get help, he is putting your happiness at the bottom of his priority list.

But Karma- no one is suggesting "spending a life ppropping him up"- a life is a long time- but maybe the OP feels she is not ready to give up on the marriage yet.

What you don't seem to understand is that depression can cause people to behave in ways that don't fit with your idea of what is right, wrong, rational etc.
I'm not saying that he can use his depression as a hook to hang his infideltiy on ( and as far as the OP knows this has not actually happened) or behave like an arse all the time. But it's a lot more complex that you seem to appreciate.

Two people with names starting as Counting has confused me a little!

He engages in a lot of escapism I'm sure of that. Used alcohol in past, and I can see this flirtation being an escape.

But no matter how much work he does on himself (and I agree that would be a good idea) I will always be left knowing he lies easily. Or maybe not easily, but he is capable of telling bare faced lies to me, in the same evening where he tells me he loves me. He exists with this loving side and this deceitful side closely connected. I don't know that I'll ever get past that.

It is complex but that doesn't mean she has to put up with it.

Two years ago he did it (was he depressed then?) they dealt with it - presumably lots of stress for her, talk of boundaries, promises to change etc, etc.

Now he's doing it again. What a twat.

Please don't allow yourself to be guilted into making even more allowances for his behaviour bendaroo. He is an adult who is responsible for his actions. Those actions cannot be explained by depression alone. If your husband manages not to lie to his work colleagues and friends despite his mental health challenges, the depression could be a huge smokescreen.

Depression might be a factor in all this, but it won't be the only one. Not everyone who is depressed has an affair and lies about it. Not everyone who has an affair is depressed. People who have affairs do tend to have one ubiquitous personality trait though - selfishness.

The point is that you can't deal with any of his issues (even if you wanted to) because he hasn't admitted them. You cannot work with what is hidden. Two years of turmoil, counselling and depression treatment haven't had any impact on your husband's attachment to his secrets and lies. If he's ever going to give these up, it will take more than you being an understanding wife and a frank chat.

Deal with what you know. You're unhappy and you know your husband has lied to you. He's making arrangements to go on an overnight trip with a woman whose friendship with him rocked your marriage and his wife's happiness and nearly lost him his marriage 2 years ago. You feel bullied by him. Make a decision based on those things.

You've given him two years of your precious life to sort this out, deal with his "demons", stop lying and rebuild your marriage.

He has pissed those two years away.

You've done the ultimatum already. It failed. He's still lying and you're still unhappy.

There is no point in having the same climax as the last time - a threat to leave without counselling.

You know where that gets you - nowhere, because he will go along with it outwardly to keep you alongside while not committing himself to actually addressing any of the issues.

This time you need to let him come to his own decisions about how he will deal with his own lack of integrity.

Alone.

If he fixes himself adequately maybe you'll have a future together, but your role as nursemaid to his ego has not been effective and is a waste of your life.