Should I give a third chance?

[bendaroo]

I am in a real dilemma and can't easily talk to RL friends at the moment - kids at home for holidays, DH at home in the evening.

My DH had a friendship with a colleague two years ago which I was not happy about as he told lies and kept the extent of their friendship from me. (I knew about the lies because I looked on his phone and texts did not tally with what I was being told.) However he always maintained it wasn't physical. but during this period, he diminished my feelings and made me feel unreasonable and overly jealous. During a year of couple counselling, things improved and we agreed to keep things open and for there to be no more secrets. So I feel I gave him a second chance.

But I have just found more evidence of him agreeing to meet up with this person again and therefore lying as he has not told me himself. It's not a betrayal in a sexual way, I don't think, but by agreeing to travel to a sports event together he is going against all the work we did in counselling. I don't think I can trust him after finding this out and I don't think I can stay married to someone I can't trust. But we have 2 children and I'm in bits at the thought of splitting up.

He doesn't know that I know by the way so I'm keeping things ticking along as normal which is also really hard. Not sure what to do??

Thanks for your post Nfk

I am thinking of seeing a solicitor and I do keep snooping but all gone very quiet. I hate it so much about as much as I hate the fact that I might not be with him in a matter of days or weeks.

I told a very close friend about it today and she's lovely. I told her I was struggling with the falseness of these current days while I work out what to do. I'm not a deceitful person, yet I'm deceiving dh right now about what's going on in my mind. She said it's not a falseness it's a process.

Wise friend you have there

What I suppose I meant was text contact. Then any contact at all seeing as they no longer work together. Did he tell you about all the texts you've intercepted?

What is it that really hurts most?

Is it that this woman is a potential threat to your marriage?

Is it your DHs lying?

Is she single?
Is she waiting for him to leave you- or hopes he will?

What is stopping you confronting him - and not backing off?

Why can't you or won't you talk to him in as much detail as you are here?

No Beth he hasn't mentioned any of the texts. Or things like he sent her a message saying 'thanks for the bottle of red, I'll enjoy it with a steak one night'. He's a big red drinker, I don't drink at all, well only occasional vodka so it wouldn't be unusual for him to have bottles to himself, it's not that, it's that she bought him wine and he didn't tell me.

He's clearly a good friend with her. Or perhaps more. Think about it. Do you buy bottles of good wine for someone who only know vaguely. They are close. She knows his tastes. What else?

Oh counting they're hard questions to answer.

The lying hurts the most as I can't trust anything he says if I know he lies.

She is single and a bit unhinged having been left by her dh years ago. She's only mid 30s, slim, up for fun and drinks a lot, he is 50, overweight and also likes to drink a lot but is a happy, desperately romantic drunk not an angry one. but why would she chase him, 20yrs older?

I can't talk to him and I don't know why. I keep thinking that I'll do it once such and such is over - like half term holidays, or big work presentation next week, or weekend as we've got my godmother coming to stay.... At what point do you throw the spanner in and upset everything??? I can't do it just yet.

Do you think you are holding back to wait til after the event to see what he does/says?

She chases him because she's unhinged. He chases her because she's young. Who knows? Don't worry about that. Make plans for you. Ideas and plans and strategies for getting through each day. If you can't deal with the big picture yet, then don't. Just try not to lose your mind over it.There's no point issuing ultimatums you can't keep to or don't want to issue. There will come a time when you will see what you need to do and what you want to do. And then you will go forward in confidence. In the meantime, you need to go through the process. Your friend was right.

Schmaltzing - I have to do it myself, I'm sure on that one. My parents and siblings will be upset but they'll help support me, I know that for sure. But it's my job to do.

I am thinking of waiting till after the event - or for him to come back on the Sunday to a bed made up in the study and it all to deal with. That way I don't need to say what I know, just that they've been together. Then maybe he'll tell me more than I know. But that seems a silly plan to me now - I can't hold on that long it's too hard to pretend all is well.

Yes JFK I am building up to it but just not yet ready. Dh works from home sometimes on days when I do, so if there's a day like that next week it would be ideal. First thing after school drop as that gives us all day if we need it.

Reading your latest posts about the contact between your h and ow, he really has been having his cake and eating it. It's just lie piled upon lie.

You have been too reasonable in allowing this 'friendship' to continue. Anything from outside, which made you uncomfortable and threatened your marriage should have been knocked on the head by him as soon as you expressed concerns.

You had/have every right to say no to any contact between them. You don't have to compromise on this. It is your right, as a wife. And he should put your feelings first.

Look- there is problem with communication in your marriage.

He lies, you hold back your true thoughts and feelings.

You seem to be setting him a test- allowing him to go away and then hope you will find "evidence" that will mean you can walk away.

Is there any chance you are being passive aggressive? Being angry but not showing it? Giving him the cold shoulder instead of saying how you feel?

You do seem afraid to be assertive- either because it will upset everything, or because you are afraid of his reaction.

I think you need to be brutally honest with yourself as to why you are stuck and behaving like this when the obvious answer is simply to have THAT conversation- put all your cards on the table, tell him what you have found, how you feel, and ask where the marriage is going. It's not that complicated.

I don't see it as that, counting. I see it as op doesn't see why she has to go through this all over again. He has betrayed her trust. She tried to make it work - this is how he repays her!

But I am stuck, Countings right. I dont know why though.

Why didn't I say what I'd seen as soon as I'd seen it? Because we had plans I felt I couldn't disrupt? No surely I'm not that shallow. Because I was scared of admitting I'd snooped? Yes that a bit. Afraid of the confrontation and needing time to get myself prepared mentally.

My first thought was I need a sole session with our joint counsellor and I was so relieved when she agreed to that.

It is simple - have that conversation. But then complex when I go through it in my head and all the possible defenses come up which make me feel I need to be prepared for every eventuality.

Our counsellor said one way would be to do nothing but think about it then next week we can explore every different possible reaction of dh and I can work out my response. That made me feel better, like there was a plan.

Maybe I'm passive aggressive, I'm not sure. I'm not very assertive, that's for sure but I can be stubborn when I am sure of what I want. My dh says I'm 'controlling'. He says this in relation to me asking him to phone at say 9pm if he's away overnight with work, and to email me if he gets back to hotel too late to call me so if I wake up at 2am, I can look on my phone and know he's safe. Is that controlling? I feel it's caring and close.

so if it's that simple, as you suggest, why doesn't she just go to a lawyer?

Why is she behaving passively and thinking of playing detective when she could just ask him about all of this and say how sad, angry, disappointed etc etc she feels?

Because she can't.

I see two people here are who in some ways similar- he buries his head in an inappropriate friendship to avoid his demons ( and mental health issues), and the OP wants to let things run until she finds more evidence because she wants the decision to be made for her by irrefutable evidence- rather than talk about it now.

It looks like 2 people in a marriage who are talking to everyone, except each other, about how they feel.

re. your previous post- he sees it as controlling- maybe a bit needy- you see it as caring. Is it caring or is it keeping tabs on him- which is what he might think. I don't know as I amnot married to him- you are the best judge.

My Dh goes away a lot with work.. He says he will call me if he is in the hotel by say 10pm, if not then he won't. I don't expect an email. And he travels all over the world. I know that if anything happened to him- God forbid- I'd be told by someone.

The email if back too late to call was set up during counselling, so after this problem. The counsellor asked me to say how dh could act when he's away to reassure me. That was my response. Dh agreed at time though mumbled about 'keeping tabs' and he has since been cross about it, upset that I control him like a dog on a leash. Which seems really harsh when I only wanted reassurance. So I have argued many times that the late-email thing is not controlling but caring.

Maybe I'm off kilter here.

We are rubbish at communicating, both of us. I wish this could solved by us sitting and talking about it.

Karma - you're right, I've been too reasonable but to start with I wanted him to develop any friendship he had because I had no reason not to trust him and he had few friends. So I made myself feel cool about it (when really I did feel threatened but told myself not to be silly). So that was the start. Then it went beyond what I was comfortable with when there were some very late nights, binges and I discovered two lies. That's when I changed tack, he dug his heels in and eventually I saw a solicitor and told him I was leaving unless things changed.

So I can't believe he would risk everything again. The counsellor wondered if he wants out of the marriage but can't admit that to himself - also maybe counting said that too.

I think asking him to contact you when he is away is completely understandable a) when there has been a breach of trust b) when you're concerned about his mental health and c) when you've got concerns that he might not be looking after himself e.g drinking too much alcohol.

I also completely understand some of the communication difficulties from your side if when you do communicate grievances, you feel bullied by him.

I expect that's why you've been so reasonable about things. It doesn't sound as though you've ever felt comfortable and secure enough to raise your concerns, because you've feared his reaction.

So, we've clarified that there has been regular and ongoing unnecessary contact between them and that it's been kept secret from you.

I don't think you should delay any longer in dealing with this, but I think the counselling session might help you decide what outcome you want and which is most likely.

I think if you decide that no matter what he says or does now, you can't trust him and his untrustworthy behaviour, bullying and poor management of his own mental health have killed the marriage beyond redemption, there's no need to wait for more evidence and no need to tell him how you've come by the evidence you've already got. Being unhappy about those issues are perfectly justifiable reasons for ending the relationship.

If however you decide that if he came completely clean about everything you've suspected and had proof about over the years- and then got help to deal with the character traits that allowed that behaviour along with the bullying- and he promised to manage his mental health better, you could forgive him and give him a third chance, then I think you're going to have to be honest with him about everything.

Him contacting when he was away was part of the "deal" after his initial betrayal, right ?

So his whining and bellyaching about that is in direct opposition to something he agreed to that was meant to help heal your trust in him.

It points to further breaches of trust to me

He said all he said back then to get you to STFU and let him get on with doing whatever he wanted. And he's still doing it.

It's tricky the trust issue. She doesn't trust him because he hasn't always behaved in a trustworthy way. He feels she is keeping tabs on him which, if you were now trustworthy, would be horrible. But if you weren't trustworthy, it would also be horrible. Does he want you to trust him or does he want you to get off his case?

I understand not rocking the boat by asking questions. I was frightened of my husband and frightened of the "talk." It's easy when you're not in this situation or you're on the other side. Looking back, I can't believe how weak I was. But I think sometimes you have to grow your strength in these situations.

There are many things I relate to in this situation. The depressed man who doesn't usually have friends but then makes one. Hmmm. In my ex's case, the "friend" was actually his cover story for the affair.

My husband works away a lot - I ask him to text me when he arrives at his hotel. I do not view it as controlling, I view it as caring about his safe arrival. My husband views it as being considerate towards me, so I don't worry about him unnecessarily.

Hate to say it, but your husband doesn't seem to care much about what makes you feel comfortable and reassured. He seems to have promised a lot, but delivered very little. Good advice on the relationships board, generally, is to judge him by his actions rather than his words.

I really wouldn't feel bad about telling him you looked at his phone. If he had never given you cause to, and you still did it, then he would have a right to be upset about it. As things stand, he has given you cause to be suspicious, so loses any right to be affronted by you taking steps to discover the truth. The bones of it is that, in lying and breaking promises to you, he has dne far worse than look at a few texts/emails.

The best form of defence is attack - when he is attacking you about looking at his phone, what he is really doing is deflecting from his own behaviour and turning blame back on you.

Bendaroo

There are loads of muddled issues here.

Yes, it's considerate to call someone if you have travelled away. BUT calling or emailing someone will not stop them jumping into bed with OW/OM 2 minutes later- would it? Someone can make a "duty call"- then do whatever they like afterwards. If you agree to trust someone- and they agree to try as well- then you need to back off and let the process take its course.

So your "keeping tabs" scenario and wanting security doesn't really stack up in reaity.

I don't think your behaviour could be classed as either " reasonable" or " unreasonable".

I do think you come over as insecure, determined to hang onto this guy whatever- when maybe being more feisty, less clingy, more " don't really give a fuck about you" attitude might stop him in his tracks more- and make him worry about losing YOU.

You don't seem to value yourself or have any confidence.

How old are the children? If he is 50 and you have kids young enough to make pumpkins etc then is he a lot older than you- or you had kids late? Is this is combo of depression, mid life crisis, pressures of kids etc- and a predatory woman offering kindness and escape?

If i were you- and I'm not- there is no way I could come onto a forum and ask for advice about cloak and dagger tactics.

If I were you, my DH would be met with a stony face when he came in, and my asking WTF are you doing going away with OW after all we've worked through.

If he asked how I knew I'd tell him to mind his own bloody business how I knew- I just did. he would then be worried whether it was friends whod told you or whatever. You don't NEED tell him how you know!

Then I would have a bloody good talk with the kids out of the house or in bed about what was happening and what he and you want from your marriage.

I think you need to " grow a pair" and just face the situation head on.