My husband is a total twunt, isn't he????

[wandymum]

This evening I was supposed to be going out for drinks with the mums from DS's prep-school.

Weeks ago, I sent DH an e-mail asking if he could come home early (for him - about 8pm) so I could go. He replied yes. I wrote it on the calendar (over which we have had many 'Outnubered' style rows in the past).

Today we have had both sets of grandparents here for lunch plus builders starting work and two under 5s to chase around. I forgot to remind him this morning, but left a voicemail and a message with his secretary asking him to call me. I sent a text to his mobile and left a voicemail on it - we were in the car on speaker so kids heard his answerphone kick in too (bizarre detail now but will become relevant).

He didn't turn up. I sent a text saying understand you have a lot on and have forgotten, don't worry have cancelled (had arranged lifts etc... so all slightly awkward but these things happen).

He arrived a couple of hours later in a grump because I hadn't cooked. Very grumpy.

I complained this was unfair given that I hadn't even expected to be in (was actually pretty polite considering). He said I had never told him about my plans.

Showed him my e-mail and his response, calendar and texts.

He says I verbally told him I didn't want to go and that I have the wrong mobile number for him so he never got the messages. I really don't believe I can do because when we called from the car his voice was on the answerphone. DS is 4 so will be able to confirm tomorrow. He doens't deny I left a voicemail on his work phone but says as I didn't say it was urgent, I shouldn't have expected a response.

He is a total arse isn't he?

If not then I must be insane and, despite some close calls in the past few years, I'm pretty sure I am not.

What do I do?

It really wouldn't be a big issue if he'd just say sorry I f**ked up but am freaked out by his insistance it is my fault.

He barely thinks about anything else but work ?

He managed to engage his brain in wrecking your night out, and shifting the blame to you, an intelligent woman

That's quite a feat of multi-tasking, that one

I have recently read the passive ?aggressive thread and links and realized that my DH who had always worked long hours, was away a hell of a lot, did buggar all in the house, and minimal amount with DCs had always made me feel ?poor DH, he works so hard? so therefore I had to get on with everything and be grateful. He earned good money but always worked hard, claimed that he put more into it than his colleagues and was ?doing it all for me and the kids?.

Weeeelllll, if he was ?doing it all for me and the kids? for 12 hours a day at work, then naturally it was unreasonable of me to expect any help when he got home, he?d more than done his share, and though I was appreciated by him up to a point as a SAHM it didn?t really rank with his lordship?s importantness in the world of real work.

Now realize from reading the stuff on p-a behavior (sadly can?t find the vital bit to quote) that men like him get a huge ego stroke from their big, important, high-earning, secretary employing job. And far from being all for me and the kids it was first and foremost for him, him, him. The big I am. So, in fact, instead of me being grateful to him, he should have been cringeing at my feet for allowing him to do his ?I?m a v important person ? job and further, kissed my feet for allowing him to do the ?I?m a caring Dad? bullshit to his colleagues when DCs did well largely thanks to my input alone.

Just wanted to stick that in the pot!

Hi OP, I wanted to offer a thought re: keeping the "hard shoulder" going. That takes a lot of energy to keep it up, b/c it's unpleasant and stressful and requires you to stay angry all the time.

But what I have found possible, instead, is to rethink this. So I would not stop speaking to someone. That's hard work. Instead I would try to get really centered and calm and make my changes, as if I had just chosen to reorganize my time for my own benefit, not in reaction to someone else. So you would tell yourself, "Okay, this is the new premise of operation for my day: I will do x instead of y (e.g., cook for and eat with kids, instead of cooking for husband). I don't do this b/c I am in a war of attrition (which I would lose), I do it b/c it is my new practice, which I put in place b/c it works for me." So if you're having trouble keeping from being the one who will break down first, tell yourself that your new routines are nothing to do with people breaking down or not breaking down. You're not upset. You're not doing the silent treatment. You can talk to him as if all is normal if you like. B/c all is normal. You just have some new routines in place b/c they are what's best for you. His routines serve him and yours serve you. Center yourself that way.

This will throw him off, as it is unusual for you to hold your position, and he'll be likely to crack first.

It's also good as it actually probably will make you feel more centered, and therefore more able to get on with your own day. You shouldn't have to go around feeling upset over him all day while he is feeling fine waiting for you to crack. Let him be the one to worry.

Btw I think his behavior was not only unacceptable but ridiculous. And in general he sounds as if he really doesn't respect you: he's set some pretty crappy terms for you if this is the only way you can get him to hear you.

Excellent idea Keatsiepie, disengage from all the mindgames, simply alter your routine/responsibilities and focus on that.

Hello OP how are you today?

Hi, thanks for asking. No progress. DH won't discuss things at all which just reinforces how little he thinks of me really.

Our DS (4) won a cup at school this morning - he's only been there half a term and was so pleased. I took a photo of him proudly clutching it and e-mailed to DH plus grandparents. Both sets of grandparents have called him to say well done. DH has not even replied to the e-mail. He is never without his blackberry so I know he will have seen it. It just will have registered as much lower priority than all his work e-mails so he'll have ignored it.

So in summary his twuntishness is confirmed but I still don't have a plan for what to do about it.

How sad.

You really shouldn't allow this to continue, you know?

Dear Wandy,

Your DH knows what he is doing to you. I had similar and for months and months (running to a couple of years), I felt that the problem was that I just wasn't getting through somehow - so I continually gave him the benefit of the doubt. I thought 'If he only knew how much this upsets me, he would stop' - well that was my mistake. He did know. He not only knew, but he wanted me to be upset. He wanted me in a constant state of upset and confusion, because when you're upset and confused you can't fight back very well. Soon you won't know which end is up.

Every bone in your body is protesting against his treatment of you in your original post. You are right to hear your instinct loud and clear. Unfortunately his actions speak volumes about his lack of respect, and his vicious, nasty, blaming attitude. He expects you to put up with it. He thinks his trump card is the children as he knows you would be mortified for them if you broke up. This is a bully, a torturer and he knows he's doing it, no question.

There is a huge amount of pain in knowing that the person who is supposed to love you the most is in fact your enemy. He has declared war without telling you, and you didn't know it. He is a domestic terrorist. He is awful to you. No one deserves to be treated like that. Stand back and see what an amoral excuse for a man this is.

My STBXH is the same. And it happened after we had children. I asked myself your question 'How did I change?'. Well I became a mother - a bloody good one. And for whatever reason he not only stopped loving me, he started to hate me. And seemed to have no conscience about it either. Nothing added up. Not unless you put the fact that he doesn't actually care about you or your feelings. Then it all adds up.

I'm sorry you've got one too. You are strong enough to stick up for yourself though. He won't like it. Save yourself - or just save your children from having to witness the torture. Good luck.

Poppy

i absolutely think rather than ditch the DH, OP needs to slot in many more outings for herself, and train DH like a pup with her new schedule!

I think he fundmentally is a good man trying to provide for his wife and kids...

but he needs to be retrained, and she needs to start doing much LESS in the home...usually doing the minimum would help her to feel calmer and more in control, and remind him, in no uncertain terms that he is expected to uphold his side of being part of the unit

good luck OP

because the thing is, life in relationship DOES change, once kids come along

so we adjust...just dont let DH take over or opt out of family life!

no need to split the unit though, unless abuse is happening in any form

He does sound like an imcredibly busy man, who clearly needs things in black and white and if he is possibly sarcastic every 6mths, that is not daily. He is providing for his wife and kids, and in his head, like many men, he thinks this is his role, and he wants to prove he can do this well...they are simple creatures in many ways

OP you have said upthread, he never used to be like this until you had children, (before then he used to be caring), he never says sorry, he thinks counselling is for wusses. If you bring anything up, he refuses to talk. He knows you'll crack first.

He knew you were upset and noticed you giving him the cold shoulder. Of course it suits him to act normal.

How sad you have to even consider his game playing or whether he gaslights you in normal everyday life.

His lack of reaction hurts, you can't be sure if it is genuine pressure of work or is this is him prioritising again or just can't be bothered? He'll just say he was mid-meeting, make some excuse, you sent it to the wrong address, whatever. Or maybe studying shag-your-secretary porn.

In that case lose this particular battle, if he thinks you emailing about DS's award means you've decided to STFU about the other night, win the war. Go back to counselling for yourself if it gives you the muscle to stand up to him. Go back to work. I don't think he respects you and I can't believe that can be good for your DCs to witness. You may not be arguing in front of them but the older they get, they'll pick up on Dad's contempt. You may not think any of DH's behaviour warrants divorce, of course this is your life no-one can tell you what to do but this doesn't sound like what you signed up for.

I think he ticks boxes on this passive aggressive thread.

Wandy, even if you win this battle, how long until the next point scoring episode. He acts as if he is either deliberately upsetting you by not acknowledging your son's photo, pretending he is too busy to acknowledge son's photo or doesn't give a shit about son's win ---- whichever one he is not someone you should have to put up with or that your DCs will benefit from putting up with.

But DH has his issues to make him like this and it's not you, it's him and his self-esteem or something, so as it's not you only he can decide he wants or needs to change. You need to look after yourself and the DCs and stop trying to fix things.

Hmm. Still not sure about this one. OP do you contact him a lot at work during the day? Why don't you ask him if it bothers him when you contact him - some people strictly separate their work from their family life. If he says he doesn't mind, you know where you stand.

The other thing is that most men don't talk and discuss things, particularly not when it involves emotions so expecting that as a given is perhaps expecting too much in this case. If he's not used to talking about his feelings you can't expect him to suddenly come up with an open admission or confession or anything of that sort. You may need to prompt him a bit more.

If he insists on a strict work/family life separation then he will effectively be cutting us out altogether as he is so rarely here!

The more I think about it, the more I think the underlying problem is that he is a workaholic. Yes, he keeps us in a very comfortable lifestyle but we could live on far less and I have told him that. He has also been offered jobs in the past which would have meant fewer hours but paid the same but has turned them down. Because he loves his job.

He blows up with me whenever something happens that means I need him at home when he needs/wants to be at work - the evening outing, if I am ever ill, when I asked for help because of the PND etc...

It has only emerged since we had the children as before that I never needed his help in the same way.

Wandy, Realy good to see you are still here.

That is how it was for me. I think the workaholism and a lot of the other stuff you talked about can sometimes go hand in hand.

I had facial cellulitis three times and twice was asked to go to hospital for inpatient treatment, an both times I couldnt because he put his work first, and didnt want to look after the kids. The second time, looking back, he had managed to make it look like it was my preference, not his.

This stuff is all part of a package, which is about who he is as a person. It isnt to do with him being 'bad' or 'good', but it is really the sign of someone who is highly status driven and at the same time willing to lower your status to improve his, if that makes sense. What is at the bottom of it is poor self worth, in all probability.

I spent far too long not seeing this, and then longer worrying about him and why he was like he was. I should have been thinking more about what is fair, my own boundaries, and how to manage them.

Also, I relate to the difficulty in keeping up the annoyance. For years, even when I was furious with him for some selfishness or other, he got round me by amusing me (his favoured trick) or just keeping it going longer than me, or making it all my fault in fact- see this list here- I bet it will be an eye opener:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation#Basic_manipulative_strategy_of_a_psychopath

When my h finally changed, he laughed at this list and agreed he had used all but one, in order to get himself out of difficult situations with me or get what he wanted for himself.

I think Keats idea is a brilliant one for starters- namely, get centred for you, and ensure equality.

A couple of really good books to recommend:

Cloud and Thompson- When to say yes and when to say no (its good and very practical on how to improve your boundaries, if a bit annoying christian)

and also Frank Pittman - Man enough (brilliant on placing the kind of man youve married and helping you to rethink what it is fair to expect, without being too 1980s radical feminist about it).

I cannot think of a time since we have had the children that he has apologised to me. Including when I came home from an ERPC to find he'd been looking at 'shag your secretary porn' - which somehow turned out to be my fault because I'd caused him to feel so emotional he'd needed the release.

This alone would be a complete deal breaker for me, quite apart from all the other crap your "D"h puts you through. My DH is a complete workaholic and I'm talking cancelled holidays, 100 hour weeks, and work being a priority (He's a farmer), but he still finds time to be there when I need him to, look after me when I'm ill, ALWAYS answer my calls or at the very least return them as soon as he can if he misses one, and generally treat me with respect and consideration.

Your husband is a complete twunt. He should not be treating you like a piece of shit he picked up on his shoe on a hot day - which he is.

I think the underlying problem is that he is a fuckwit
There is no - I repeat - no - excuse - ever - for 'blowing up' at people.
None whatsoever
Unless, of course, you are an entitled fuckwit who thinks that your are, indeed, entitled to.
Sorry Wandy but I have done the workaholic excuse. There are a whole list of excuses - the bad childhood excuse; the 'emotions' excuse ...
All made by others - entitled fuckwits are just that: entitled in their own minds to behave as they please (but only at home) outside they pass for human beings.
As is often said here, what do you want? Do you have to live life the way he dictates it? Do you not have the right to be heard? Or does earning a salary override common decency?

Keeping a diary of these incidents can also help you to see clear and work against self doubt.

Wandy how awful for you. I know what it's like when the blinkers come off. I was also married to someone who hid his head in the sand. He was a lawyer too, but criminal not marital like you. He worked all hours but tbh thinking back I think there was stuff going on too.

Just be careful and look after yourself as I was quite ill emotionally after I realised how awful my marriage was. I lost loads of weight too.

He didn't spend much time with the dcs but when with them he was good. Now he spends every weekend with them as they go to his. I met a lovely man and we've lived together 4 years, he's a great role model to dcs and they totally respect him. Plus he looks out for them and gets annoyed when ds1 is favoured over ds2.

Sorry for the ramble but I'm just saying it's not always worse for the dcs. And you just saw the beginnings of the split when you were working as a family lawyer. Yes it's disruptive but smooths out if you're both adult about it. Exdh and I get on well, I still cut his hair after all these years You may be surprised if you do decide to get away from the twunt? It could shock him into being a better father?

Do you have any close girlfriends in RL? They're a godsend.

ah forgot about the looking at porn bit

he's sounding like a busy workaholic secretive twunt now

maybe broach the subject of what you saw him watching, to get the issue cleared up, if he knows you know would he be likely to try and mend his behaviour? but not if you feel scared of doing that, iyswim

I'm still torn on this one, as is it every 6mths he's a twunt, or weekly? Good idea of Fiventhree to keep a log/diary, to keep yourself on track

do you have family support close by? or do you feel isolated?

OP, could you speak to his parents about this? Of course it will depend on how close you are with your in-laws. My SILs are very supportive, rather than MIL or FIL.

Your OH sounds extremely patriarchal and "traditional" so maybe he will listen to his father?

Just an idea. Good luck!

OP, this is all so You loved him before because you never had to ask for help or support so didn't notice that he was not giving you any. Since DC, you have needed help and support and he has failed to provide it. It's possible he just doesn't realise - say, if you have not had enough self esteem to ask properly and you may seem so competent and in control that he doesn't stop to think, but it sounds like you have left him in no doubt with this latest incident and he has not responded.

Do you want to be with this man in your old age when ideally a couple support each other in all sorts of ways? He would be all take and no give by the sound of it. Ultimately that is going to make you miserable. Of course your DH got your messages the other night btw - he would not function in his job if he did not read/listen to messages. He CHOSE to ignore them. I am so sorry.

Before you get his parents on board, have a think about whether he is modelling the relationship that they themselves had, or is your MIL in fact cherished by your FIL?

Lastly, sometimes high earning professionals get such an inflated sense of their own importance at work that they forget to be an equal partner at home and instead think of themselves as all important demi-gods. There is NO excuse for that, actually, so don't let it continue.

Good luck. It's not you!!

Your OH sounds extremely patriarchal and traditional so maybe he will listen to his father

My DH was very 'partriarchal and tradional' but by all rights that should really read my DH was very repressed and unemotional (but wouldn't/couldn't see it as a fault)
with low self worth which he had to boost by getting admiration and 'respect' from his work
and witheld love and open support for the kids (which he kidded himself was traditional values)
whilst probably being jealous of them getting my attention ( I surmise cos god knows why he didn't show warmth to them)
so in fact was a psychologically screwed up fuckwit, not a selfish and angry man that I needed to sort out .

And my DH didn't behave in nearly an unpleasant and extreme a manner as the OH's.

If I was OP I would print out the passive-aggressive info and give it to DH and say that I think it applies to him. Perhaps have counselling with a relate counsellor (alone) to see what they suggest. One of the problems with a workaholic is that they are hardly ever there so it is really difficult to talk /row things through to conclusion because they will probably clam up and then you don't see them for days to make any decisions/ changes.

The more I think about it, the more I think the underlying problem is that he is a workaholic.

And perhaps your contacting him at work (although you obviously have no choice) is the only way you can remind him that you want him home?

If he is a workaholic he needs help to give up his addiction. This is a big one, but you do need to be very very clear with him that it's either you and his children, or his job. He needs to see that if he carries on he will lose you all. Try to stick to the point, you have been sidetracked with the details (emails, who said what and when). The crux of this is that he now has a family and he should spend time with them if that's what they want.

Some men get so bloody macho about earning a lot so that their wife and children can have "the best" - the most expensive everything, the best holidays. They don't want to slip back in the workplace. You need to tell him that it's him you want, not his money.

I'm sorry but talking to a man like this about pscyhology, passive aggression or personality disorders is not going to make any difference. I think you have to speak his language. He will see it as a lecture. The only thing a macho man understands is clear and direct confrontation, black and white yes or no. Do this or do that.

He really doesn't sound like the type of bloke that's going to read a printout about passive aggression and go "oh yes I see it now, if only you could have explained it to me earlier"!