Divorcing Dad: Should the engagement ring be returned to me?

[Freshlygroundbeans]

This is my first post on this website-

I have been married for almost 10months and am about to get a divorce. My partner is a solicitor and has drafted the Separation Agreement. The separation is by mutual agreement and will be uncontested.
The reasons for divorce are very complex. They relate to the children of a blended family and mental health issues. These issues were prevalent before we got married but became exacerbated after the wedding . There is a mutual feeling that we should never have got married.
Within the agreement she cites : ?The parties agree that she keep the engagement ring given to her by DH?. The ring is still being paid off and is a significant amount of money. Both parties will be undergoing financial strain when moving on. I will be leaving the home with my son and do not particularly want to be continuing making payments on an engagement ring !
I have asked her to return the ring whereby I will sell to retrieve the expense .My own reasons are that the ring is now meaningless and has no symbolic value. A sham. For my mind it would be an honourable gesture of her to return it to me.
Her response is that it is a gift. She even cites a law case stating that legally she is entitled to keep it .In this regard she may be correct. However, I think this is a ?moral issue? more than ?gift issue?. I intend to remain friends with her but I know my friendship will be determined by her attitude to this issue.
What are all your thoughts? What would you do?

I think you're entitled to have it back tbh, however in trying to argue a "moral issue" with a lawyer with case law on their side, you may well be on a hiding to nothing...

(I say that as an ex lawyer)

I still have mine and wear it, even though we never married and he left me when our DD was 6 weeks old.
It signifies to me, that our daughter was (for me at least) conceived within a loving partnership, and one that I thought would last a lifetime.
One day it will be DD's.
Besides, it's gorgeous!

Surely an engagement ring is given in contemplation of marriage and since the marriage took place she's entitled to it?

(Quoting Judge Judy)

And in my case, I gave mine back.

I'm mixed on this actually - it was given as a gift & unless all gifts are being given back, then it should be kept by the person who received it. Also, whilst the ring may no longer mean anything to you, it may still hold sentimental value to your STBX.

OTOH, if you're still paying it off, then I can understand why you would want it back.

As I said, mixed on it, sorry!!

Absolutely, the ring should be returned to you. I totally see you want to remain friends etc... this would, for sure, get in the way, you would still be paying off the ring, it is unfair. Totally. I agree it is a moral issue, but it is also a matter of fair finances.

Ooh, I don't know sits on fence

One one hand, it was a gift, but on the other its unfair that you are still paying for it.

Hope you do get it sorted tho!

Can she keep it, but agree to make the rest of the payments?

Hi Cakebump : She is quite adamant about keeping the ring and not making the payments. This is a black and white issue for her.

How much is left to pay?

I think she should give it back on the grounds that a) you both agree the marriage shouldn't have taken place and b) you are still paying for it - you should be allowed to recoup what you can, so you are clear of this debt.

Being that she's a lawyer, you might need to do a bit of research into the case law.

If she's legally correct and not budging, and you telling her it would be a friendship ender is making no difference, there's not much else you can do imho.

Sassybeast : Around £1500. Money that I need to finance a new place and the all that comes with separation.

Thought Judge Judy said that an engagement ring is the exception to the 'gifts belong to the recipient rule'.

Think they should be returned to whoever paid for it / is still paying - if both parties pay I imagine it gets complicated

The engagement ring is a promise or contract to marry. If you split up before you married the engagement ring must be returned as the contract is broken. If the marriage goes ahead then the ring belongs to the woman (or man if he also got an engagement ring) as the contract to marry was fulfilled.

I wouldn't be holding Judge fecking Judy up as the arbiter of all that is legal and right either tbh....

People have different views on keeping rings in general but in this case I would not sign that agreement and would say if you want it, have it but I'm not making any more payments toward it. Who chose/wanted the ring??

IMV - if you chose it, knowing it was too expensive to purchase outright and would have continued paying it off from your own, not 'family' finances then I can see why she expects the burden of paying for it to fall on you. Particularly as it does count as a gift, promise for marriage and all that jazz.
If she chose it or indicated that it must be a certain one knowing it was too expensive a purchase then if she wants to keep it she should continue the payments for it.

We didn't have an engagement ring for ages then it came out of 'our' pot anyway as we lived together as married on all but paper anyway even though the intent was the same. So in my scenario I would keep it if I wanted it. But in your scenario, if she chose it because she wanted that one then it should be her paying and I would pay if it were me.

How can she argue that she doesn't have to continue making the payments? That is completely ridiculous. Either she gives you the ring back or pays it off. You shouldn't have to pay for something that means nothing to you, you will never get to see and has no purpose anymore. It belongs solely to her now (if she keeps it) so she should pay it off. You own the moral high ground definitely but I doubt you have any legal standing.

That sounded a bit mean, I'm sorry it wasn't meant to

If she's going to be like this though I do think that who wanted it and pushed the purchase through is important. If it's coming down to nitpicking and stubborness.

Like I say it's just imo but it sounds like an awful lot of money and that if you have been flexible with some things/let them go for the sake of being amicable then she really should be approaching things in the same way.
I would have a look at the cited precedents too for comparison with the situation - if it's a ring bought 20 years ago and a divorce after all those years it's very different for example, because it may actually be the case that if she wants to argue it on those grounds and forces your hand then you can bring up the relevancies, or lack of them.

It just seems quite mean spirited and unfair to be doing your 'amicably split' exH and his son out of necessities due to the end of a marriage that wasn't a fault divorce due to him. For the sake of a bit of rock. If it means that much to her then she should pay for it frankly.

She chose the engagement ring. She was also very aware of my financial capabilities and how long it would take to pay off. I am not really contesting the legal side to the issue . I see this as an integrity issue that will determine my friendship with her going forward..... as a couple of you have pointed out. Thank you all for your comments so far.

Why, WHY are people quoting Judge Judy ffs?

She is completely in the wrong and is immoral to boot. Tell her you have no intention of agreeing to that. She shouldn't be drafting up your divorce anyway - no way. You need an independent solicitor for yourself if she's playing as dirty as this.

You sound well rid, to be honest. She sounds mercenary and tough as old boots.

Yes...I expected you to say she had chosen it.

In reply to your reply - I concur then, you definitely have the moral highground.
I stand by my comments on unfairness. I couldn't help but view it as a very poor show, I don't think it's a comment on your integrity if your position is 1) she gives it back for sale 2) she wants it she pays. In this case imv it makes her look quite bad actually. I would definitely be cocking a brow at a friend of mine that did this.

an engagement ring is surety for the woman in case the engagement/marriage breaks down and she is left pregnant/destitute/etc.

old-fashioned, but then marriage as an institution is old-fashioned, so there you go.

the fact that you bought the ring on credit isn't her concern really. it's always unwise not to buy a gift outright... either buy a cheap ring cash, or don't buy anything. otherwise you risk a situation like this.

i don't actually think you have the moral high ground. in terms of etiquette, which is what rules the customs of gift giving if you're going to take it beyond the law, you are churlish to demand the return of a gift due to a change in relationship.

Just another thing to consider. The mark up on jewellery is huge. The re-sale you get offered is for scrap value. As a recent example my engagement ring cost £1000 ( emerald cut diamond solitaire white gold) best offer I have had is £120. It is not very old and in excellent condition. Just something to consider of you plan to sell to clear the debt owed on it. Sorry

It's a gift you gave her so she's legally and morally entitled to keep it. You don't get to ask for it back unfortunately.

Reading all your comments has given me a good sanity check .