Divorcing Dad: Should the engagement ring be returned to me?

[Freshlygroundbeans]

This is my first post on this website-

I have been married for almost 10months and am about to get a divorce. My partner is a solicitor and has drafted the Separation Agreement. The separation is by mutual agreement and will be uncontested.
The reasons for divorce are very complex. They relate to the children of a blended family and mental health issues. These issues were prevalent before we got married but became exacerbated after the wedding . There is a mutual feeling that we should never have got married.
Within the agreement she cites : ?The parties agree that she keep the engagement ring given to her by DH?. The ring is still being paid off and is a significant amount of money. Both parties will be undergoing financial strain when moving on. I will be leaving the home with my son and do not particularly want to be continuing making payments on an engagement ring !
I have asked her to return the ring whereby I will sell to retrieve the expense .My own reasons are that the ring is now meaningless and has no symbolic value. A sham. For my mind it would be an honourable gesture of her to return it to me.
Her response is that it is a gift. She even cites a law case stating that legally she is entitled to keep it .In this regard she may be correct. However, I think this is a ?moral issue? more than ?gift issue?. I intend to remain friends with her but I know my friendship will be determined by her attitude to this issue.
What are all your thoughts? What would you do?

Speaking as a woman, I think engagement rings are a load of arse and anyone who'd get a loan for one is... well, it was a moment of madness on your part Op, put it that way. I'm sure you've learned your lesson though :)

And yes I'm in the camp who says she's a greedy cow who's decided that she's the number 1 priority over any financial issues, and if she had any shred of decency, she'd be giving back the ring/taking on the loan.

Unfortunately you have to abide the law which mightn't support you here but in your shoes, I'd be looking to a) recoup the money some other way in the split b) lawyering up.. or at least getting advice elsewhere.

I have no idea who the ring belongs to legally, but I do have an idea that she should not be acting as her own lawyer. You, OP, need your own lawyer and she needs hers. There is a very evident conflict of interest in your lawyer divorcing wife acting as the lawyer for your separation/divorce. Please don't let her, you will be screwed in ANY situation. I guarantee it.

Wasn't the idea of the diamond ring to be for the wife to have some financial back up if the husband couldn't provide for her anymore?

I think she should return it if you had cancelled the wedding before it happened but now it's hers.

I'm divorced and I have never dreamt of returning the rings especially not after he emptied the house while I was out for an evening.

I still have them, they don't have any sentimental value anymore and I have to admit that the only reason they have not been sold yet is that I'm afraid to find out the diamond is bad quality or even worse, a zirconia... That would make a sham of the whole marriage from the start... :-S

And yes, she can act as her own lawyer, everybody can, it's called self-representation.

Husband can disagree about the ring but, fighting this in court could end up being several times more expensive than the ring itself.

Good evening. I am, in fact, the soon to be ex-wife. Soon to be ex DH showed me this thread, as he said, earlier on, he would. Funnily enough, he is agreeing with those that agree with him.

So, to set a few things straight. You may remember the disastrous wedding thread here. Within three days of wedding, we weren't talking. And, frankly, it's a miracle, sometimes, that we've made it through nine months of marriage.

So, the engagement ring is mentioned briefly in disastrous wedding thread. Story is thus: we chose ring together, with his budget of max £1500. I am a trainee solicitor (in the City - I do no family law at all). We found ring. He initially paid for it all by going hugely overdrawn on his debit card. He then transferred debt to a 0% credit card, with the plan that he would use his surplus money from his bank account in South Africa to clear the debt. Additionally, other things were put on this card too, including domestic flights and a few other things - maybe around another £500 or £600.

So, wedding takes place. Massive, unexpected invoice from his sister. See thread linked to above for details of the bloody awful nightmare that ensued. STBXH took sister's side and used the money in his South African bank account to give to her, rather than using it to pay off the ring.

So, we return to UK. Marriage counselling etc. Brief separation before Christmas. Try to make things work. Fail. Decide divorce is only way forwards (wedding itself making it very hard to work on the other issues - mainly to do with step-parenting and his vehement dislike of me being on anti-depressants, long-term.)

So, credit card debt is now the point that is argued about. I have told him to take separate legal advice - he hasn't. I have not asked for any maintenance or assets etc. We thankfully have no shared assets and no children together. I want to split outstanding debt 50:50. He wants me to give ring back. I think that it's mine to keep or sell or whatever (to provide for DD, keep roof over heads etc). He has posted thread - so, I have now given the background.

Legally, I am in the right. Morally, I feel I am too, since he chose to use the money he should have used on the ring, to give to his sister, to pay for a myriad of things that I neither asked for or wanted.

So, please take full story into consideration. We are, for sake of our respective children, endeavouring to be civilised, though frankly it's proving hard at the moment.

Oh wow.

Well OP, if you are that sorry excuse for a husband I suggest you bugger right off and stop asking for the ring back.

well OP, you reap what your sow eh? isn't karma a pita

Heh, you just knew the other side of the story was going to be something like that.

Good luck with your future Freckled. You're well rid of a man who thinks he's got the right to demand an engagement ring back, after you've got married.

Oh yes I remember your thread. The OP should perhaps ask his sister to contribute to the cost of the ring!

Point is, too, that the engagement and the vows were not a 'sham'. I made my vows and had plans for a life together. Yes, we shouldn't, in retrospect, have married, given that the underlying 'blended family' issues weren't addressed and he, for reasons unknown to me, had failed to mention that he had a major problem with long-term use of anti-depressants (have had depression for decades - I respond very well to SSRIs, take dose daily, function well, have job, earn money, etc etc - he sees the tablets as a huge issue - something he'd never mentioned pre-wedding). But, we did get married, we did love each other.

The horrors of the time in South Africa meant that we started the marriage in a horrible atmosphere of acrimony and animosity, which meant underlying issues suddenly were raised and we've spent the past ten months or so on an emotional rollercoaster, trying to work through things, but ultimately failing. I do, wonder, if the wedding and the time we spent in South Africa had been happy, whether we would be in the situation we're in today. Hard to say. But anyhow, the marriage was not entered into as a 'sham'.

I'm really glad that you're getting divorced Freckled and I wish you luck for the future.

The OP really is a total waste of space. Leave the poor woman alone. I think she's suffered enough.

Am sure, too, that my STBXH will have his own take and interpretation of things which he may or may not add to the thread. Whether either of us feel vindicated by the opinions of others unfortunately doesn't change the realities of the situation. But, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger (and grey apparently - found my first grey hair last week ).

I hope that once marriage is over, we are living in different places and all things are settled, that I will be able to look back over things and understand that everything happens for a reason.

Just reading the other thread now. What a grasping family.

You can see where the OP got his attitude of trying to grab back things that he'd supposedly given as a gift from.

It was a gift and the fact that payments are still due on it is, I'm afraid, your issue. It probably wasn't necessary to have such an expensive ring, but is it worth fighting over if you want a clean break?

NO! an engagement ring is a gift given in good faith.

DH and I agreed that if we split up I would keep mine, but pay half, the grand sum of £58
(We married as students so this was real money).

Sorry OP, but if you are such a total idiot as to get in debt buying a ring for a relationship that was dodgy from the start you are an utter fool.

From the other thread it sounds like the family were trying to make a profit from the wedding. They booked a honeymoon for the couple that was basically a holiday for themselves, the sister booked a whole lot of things on the couple's behalf which she then demanded payment for. I wonder if she was taking wedding planner's commission. I haven't got to the bit as to whether they actually managed to fleece Freckled's mother. I hope they didn't.

Now he wants a ring back that the OP had already been being paying for out of their joint account. Ka-ching!

My lovely mother is still being a godsend. She is, however, demanding to vet any other man I ever date so that she can give her seal of approval

Freckled, if you listed the ring on ebay, with links to this & other thread, you could make A FORTUNE! Do it girl.

I want to split outstanding debt 50:50.

THAT is the main issue with me. So the OP would like to keep the ring, worth £1500 and spilt the outstanding debt with his STBX???

Errr... no....

I'm confused that the OP says there is £1500 left to pay on the ring, but Freckled says the budget was £1500

However it was, TBH Freckled, I'd just give him the ring back. If you try to sell a £1500 ring you aren't going to get more that £150 for it. Is it really worth it? My engagement ring from ExH was £3000 (and I hated it!) some time after we split I sold it and got less than £300. I was really surprised, but unless the ring is especially unusual then you only get scrap value - which is never much on a ring.

I be giving the ring back with a big smile and a "There you go my dear, now you can give it to your sister - the one you'd rather be with"

Well it was a gift, wasn't it? Are you going to ask for everything back that you gave her & give her everything she ever bought you?

And tbh, if there were that many issues, perhaps you shouldn't have spent SO much on a gift? I assume that it was you that decided to take on this debt of an expensive ring, so I think it is one of the things you have to live with!

The person receiving the gift is not responsible for any debt that the giver gets into through purchasing the gift. I don't see why it is any different from anything else that gets given etc.

Have you asked for the wedding ring back too?
I see the engagement ring as an offering for the promise of marriage. That you did get married, therefor, you wouldn't be entitled to get it back.
runs for cover, with her £4000 diamond ring

She is bit of a Mumsnet Junkie ! I am very aware that she will pick up on this thread

All the more reason she should keep it. You came across to her territory to shame/embarrass her amongst her peers into giving you the ring back.

LOW!