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Original poster

Divorcing Dad: Should the engagement ring be returned to me?

294 replies

Freshlygroundbeans · 25/05/2012 18:35

This is my first post on this website-

I have been married for almost 10months and am about to get a divorce. My partner is a solicitor and has drafted the Separation Agreement. The separation is by mutual agreement and will be uncontested.
The reasons for divorce are very complex. They relate to the children of a blended family and mental health issues. These issues were prevalent before we got married but became exacerbated after the wedding . There is a mutual feeling that we should never have got married.
Within the agreement she cites : ?The parties agree that she keep the engagement ring given to her by DH?. The ring is still being paid off and is a significant amount of money. Both parties will be undergoing financial strain when moving on. I will be leaving the home with my son and do not particularly want to be continuing making payments on an engagement ring !
I have asked her to return the ring whereby I will sell to retrieve the expense .My own reasons are that the ring is now meaningless and has no symbolic value. A sham. For my mind it would be an honourable gesture of her to return it to me.
Her response is that it is a gift. She even cites a law case stating that legally she is entitled to keep it .In this regard she may be correct. However, I think this is a ?moral issue? more than ?gift issue?. I intend to remain friends with her but I know my friendship will be determined by her attitude to this issue.
What are all your thoughts? What would you do?

OP posts:
TooManyOddSocks · 26/05/2012 06:33

Freckled Much as it will piss you off, I would give the loser his ring back. As LtEve says, suggest to him that he gives to his sister. Grin

ComradeJing · 26/05/2012 06:38

Well and truly busted OP!

Well done Freckled, I remember your thread. I'm SO glad you're getting out.

KittieCat · 26/05/2012 06:38

Just goes to show every story really does have two sides. I was very much on OP's side but I too remember STBXW's thread and, given the circumstances detailed therein, I have changed my view.

I am having various issues atm with DH's family and it does put a terrible strain on a realationship, especially when there is a 'side' to be taken.

I genuinely hope you can both move on quickly and are happy in the long term.

tribpot · 26/05/2012 06:52

KittieCat - agreed, I felt the same. Yesterday's version of the story made me think that legally the ex-wife should be entitled to keep the ring (not her fault it was bought on credit) but morally should give it back (why drive ex-H further into debt to fund a ring symbolising a marriage that had failed so quickly?).

Finding out the ex-wife was a regular MNer gave me pause as this then began to seem like a highly manipulative thing to do when there are so many other forums on t'internet where the OP could have sought a range of opinions without his ex stumbling across the thread (as I hope she didn't).

Then with the back story about the behaviour of his family towards hers, the ring has taken on a symbolic meaning again - but this time symbolic of the absolutely appalling behaviour of his family in terms of fleecing hers for cash. The ring is a drop in the ocean.

I would still give it back, mostly because then he will have an asset that will not in any way cover the cost of the loan. Unless Freckled wants to sell it on eBay as described above, as a ring of temporary notoriety, worn by the woman who must surely have had one of the worst honeymoons of all time.

2rebecca · 26/05/2012 08:21

I would give the ring back if the OP keeps the outstanding bills as they were mainly due to his family overspending.
If however the OP sorts all the bills out himself then considering the fact that he could do with the money I'd give him the ring back.
It's a shame when a marriage falls apart at such an early stage due to money and relatives.
I'd far rather have a partner who is mentally well on antidepressants than a miserable partner. I suspect that issue could have been overcome by the OP coming to realise that for many people with recurrent depression taking an antidepressant is like an epileptic taking their anticonvulsant or angina sufferer taking their antiangina tablets.

hecatetrivia · 26/05/2012 08:29

Well, you married, so the ring is hers. I realise that you are still paying for it and that must rankle. BUT. Suppose you had bought it outright. There's the ring. It's paid for. You married. It's hers.

Would you be demanding it back in order to sell it?

No, that would be ridiculous. The ring was given, the marriage took place, no contract was breached Grin. The cost of the rings comes under the heading "tough titty"

so the only issue here is that the ring was not paid for up front.

I think what you need is the involvement of a neutral third party. Great that she is a lawyer and is able to draft an agreement, but it's probably not wise. Get round a table with someone else and negotiate.

SoupDragon · 26/05/2012 08:37

"It's a gift you gave her so she's legally and morally entitled to keep it. You don't get to ask for it back unfortunately."

Surely it is a joint asset of the marriage and thus you are entitled to half its value and she is responsive for half the debt.

SoupDragon · 26/05/2012 08:37

Responsible. not responsive.

SoupDragon · 26/05/2012 08:39

Do not under any circumstances sign anything she has drawn up.

I imagine she wants you to agree she can keep the ring precisely because she knows you are entitled to half its value as a marital asset.

OhNoMyFanjo · 26/05/2012 08:39

FreckledLeopard I remember your thread and have wondered how you were doing. On my phone so can't check but wasn't seizing tge ring mention on your thread so you could get out of there?

Op you left out the fact you could have paid for tge ring outright and choose to put it on credit. No doubt your family are very vocal about how this should play out.

A perfect example to us all how things can be presented in a certain light by choosing to not mention a couple of important facts.

valueadd · 26/05/2012 08:44

Soup dragon, do gifts given prior to marriage become marital assets?

daffydowndilly · 26/05/2012 08:44

FreckledLeopard - wow reading your story, what a nightmare you have been through. I am so sad for you to have read through that. Did your mother ever give more money towards the wedding? If so sell the ring and reimburse her.

Also, if you have both been paying off the ring from joint monies, quite honestly that is disgraceful of him, keep the ring - you paid for it. Regarding joint credit card debt, there is no such thing, if he opened the credit card it in his name (even if you have access to it), it is legally solely his debt. As you said yourself you will walk out of the relationship and marriage with no assets, and you will not be entitled to child or spousal maintenance most likely. I would not pay any of his debt and see a lawyer asap to discuss this. You need to protect yourself and your child.

Keep the ring, get it made into something else. If he is so absolutely stupid as to get into debt to pay for a ring, that is 100% his problem. Do not pay that debt off for him!!!

hecatetrivia · 26/05/2012 08:47

I think her rings come under personal effects, not marital assets. I may be wrong.

SoupDragon · 26/05/2012 08:47

"Soup dragon, do gifts given prior to marriage become marital assets?"

Well, you have to list all assets on the financial declaration however you acquired them.

SoupDragon · 26/05/2012 08:48

Assets over £500 that is.

hecatetrivia · 26/05/2012 08:49

oh, sorry, totally missed that the OPs soon to be exwife has come on the thread and the situation is somewhat different from presented by the OP

I feel like a fool sorry, freckled.

EmmaCate · 26/05/2012 08:57

Normally I'd say she's entitled to keep it, but that assumes its already paid for...

In this case I'd say her keeping but also making the final settlement would be a fair compromise. If you defaulted would they have the right to take back the ring? I think that's pertinent if so.

ImperialBlether · 26/05/2012 09:01

I remember the original thread and posted my feelings about this guy on there.

OP, you are a vile man. You made your wife's mother cry. You thought this elderly woman who is widowed and a pensioner should pay for your wedding? You took your sister's side against your wife.

You sound absolutely vile. I think the OP should have left you when her grandmother died. She definitely should have left you after the wedding. I'm so glad she's left you now.

realhousewifeofdevoncounty · 26/05/2012 09:01

Thing is you actually got married. If you had seperated before the wedding and you were still paying for it, fair enough. I don't buy that it's meaningless either. It obviously meant something at the time, and perhaps it still means something to her now. In light of the fact you are still paying for it, if I was her I would probably give it back out of goodwill. But how you paid for it is irrelevant really, if you had bought it outright would you want it back? And will getting it back actually mean you don't have to continue paying for it, or are you just a bit resentful that you are still paying so want it back as a matter of principle? I'm mixed really, but normally if an engagement has become a marriage I really don't think rings should be given back to the giver! What has happened to the wedding rings? If you had one, have you given it back to her?

realhousewifeofdevoncounty · 26/05/2012 09:03

Oops, haven't read whole thread, will go back and take a look...

EmmaCate · 26/05/2012 09:04

Ignore ignore ignore. I apologise for only going partway down the thread. Your wife should keep it.

Nyac · 26/05/2012 09:04

Personal possessions, especially those given as gifts are not joint assets. Imagine the field day abusive men could have if they were.

WhippingGirl · 26/05/2012 09:05

My engagement ring was taken back without my consent. I will be looking up the test case as I want mine back. It was my property.

gettingeasier · 26/05/2012 09:11

Wow what a thread !!!

Anyway whoever said the ring will be included in the marital asset breakdown is correct. Any jewellry with a value in excess of £500 is included in the pot (am divorcing atm) however we didnt have debts so dont know about that but am guessing that is taken into consideration too so really OP its all academic

Anyway OP although I doubt you will come back and post fwiw you are an arse of the highest order and how you didnt see how this would pan out once your ex came onto the thread I do not know

gettingeasier · 26/05/2012 09:13

Well Nyac mine were and I have a very good solicitor