Anyone seen the new MN section on surviving an affair?

[Dozer]

The info on there does not accord with the advice oft given on here.

I don't like it, smacks of pleasing-your-man.

Santa
With twitter, you just look at the stuff that is currently on your screen. Never mind the stuff that you missed. You don't need to "keep up" or anyhting. Live in the moment

I get really pissed off with this 'takes two to make and break a relationship' and 'six of one; half dozen of the other' attitude you get when people hear you've broken up. People assume there must be roughly equal fault on both sides...but that's like saying it takes two for a murder to occur...one to be murdered, who could have done more to avoid their fate; and one to do the murdering, whose needs should have been better met so they wouldn't have had to do it.

It said "I suggest you consider whether you really want this vacillating twit in your life, and if the answer is 'not sure I can be bothered', work out how to split on your terms."

I can't remember when I said it or in what precise context (some bloke who couldn't decide between wife and mistress, no doubt); must have been ages ago, but it's only a posh way of saying "leave the bastard" anyway.

There's also a couple of quotes on different pages by the wonderful WWIFN.

Absolutely LF.

I hate this idea that everyone's rational and reasonable.

It's just not true.

Some people simply cannot be negotiated with. More people need to know that, so they don't waste their time trying.

I just love how all this is directed one way. Women and men cheat.

I think the big difference is how its expected that a woman should have done more, while a man is encouraged to dump the bitch.
No amount of blowjobs and cosy dates will stop a cheating partner.

I once to my shame was the cheating bitch. And yes quite rightly my ex DP ended the relationship just as fast as he could. Yes I tried to make excuses and shift the blame as so many cheats do. All the while I was trying to shift the blame I knew that I was the one in the wrong.

The reason I shared that is because it seems to be expected for a man to finish it and no second chance while a woman is encouraged to try and hold on to her man and make his life better.

And no I dont condone cheating and it was probably the most wretched time of my life. No amount of attempts from the wronged partner will ever stop a cheat. And its never the faithful ones fault, if one person in a couple is not happy then leave dont cheat.

aww, KoPo

you learned a harsh lesson there, but no need to cry x

KoPo, I did point out right at the start that there was no mention of infidelity on the part of the wife.

[shrug] I still cry because of the fallout from XHs affair 6.5 years ago.

Dozer thank you for starting this thread, and Abitwobbly thank you for mentioning Harley Willard whose you tube on infidelity I've just watched when I really ought to be doing other things!

Now I understand why discovering my exh's second affair was the most devastating event in my entire life (and I haven't led a charmed life either). It was more devastating than the very recent death of my mum and I've been asking myself why it is I don't feel so wretched and physically in pain about her death, like I was this time last year when my marriage broke down for good.

It's a relief to know that the end of my marriage hasn't hardened me into an unfeeling woman . Thanks again.

I won't comment on the reason for this thread - it's already been said!!!!!!!

I'm going to enamel that quote on my bathroom mirror, Annie

Well yeah, there's this emphasis on husbands cheating, but who are they cheating with? Er, women, mostly. And they're not all single.

KoPo, good people do bad things and they can of course be forgiven if they regret it and learn from it. Not everyone here has cheated but I bet my bottom dollar that everyone here has done something in their lives that they are thoroughly ashamed of. (Either that or they have no sense of shame, which is not a good thing IMO.)

Anniegetyourgun said:

"KoPo, good people do bad things and they can of course be forgiven if they regret it and learn from it."

This is spot-on and the reason that the advice given on the section on surviving an affair is so wrong. Because the emphasis in that section is on the betrayed partner to do all the running, whereas the only way that a relationship can survive an affair is for the betraying partner to work on their issues so that they learn from their actions and choices.

BasilRathbone said upthread that there needs to be advice for people contemplating adultery on the affair section too, and I heartily agree with this.

And there also needs to be advice for OM/OW, because discovering the real reasons why you chose to be unfaithful is not always clear, particularly when the advice given on that section (if you are reading it as an OM/OW) is that it must be the fault of your partner. That is just not true in the vast majority of cases.

ilovemyteddy - absolutely.

Not long ago a close friend of H upon finding out about H's affair told him that it was probably my fault and that I pushed him into it H put him right saying that there was nothing I could have done to prevent it - it was him being a selfish twat. Sadly, this friend is just one of many who think that affairs are probably caused by the betrayed party, not helped by having this kind of crap on respected sites (has MN removed it yet??)....

Madabouthotchoc I am but not surprised at your H's friend's twattery in blaming you. It seems to be many people's default position - "Oh there must be something wrong with your marriage..." It's a cop-out, both on the part of the people giving the advice (MN are you listening?) and on the part of the betrayer, to believe that crap, and seek to blame anyone but themselves (in most cases.)

When I looked for support after my first affair the advice I was given was to find ways of getting from my DH what I was getting from my OM That was the worst advice I could have been given, because it wasn't my marriage that was wrong, it was me. Of course I didn't look at my choices and my issues and had a second affair before the screamingly self-evident problems that I had with myself dawned on me.

No MN has not removed it yet [anger]

So, if a married person finds meets someone that they feel they care about and they are feeling that things are not as good as they could be at home they have a number of options:

1. Leave spouse and start over with new person. Longer term this might be the wrong decision and they might both end up worse off. Also could be considerable financial aspect for them and any DCs

1. Do nothing, don't get involved with new person, try to work on marriage.

This might work or it might not, if it doesn't similar effect to above

1. Have an affair - might burn out, might bring about 1 or 2 above, might make either or both spouses happier.

No option is the easy or necessarily correct one. What if the affair was between two married people who saw it for what it was - could it not be the least risky way forward?

Or how about No 4. Higgle ? ie get some counselling to find out why they are unhappy, is it the relationship or issues within themselves ?

My DH was trying to run away from himself, trying to fix himself with various things, gambling and the affair being a couple of things. What he really needed was help coming to terms with his cr*p childhood and the self esteem issues, anger etc that stemmed from that. The affair and me could never have fixed him, he had to do it for himself through bloody hours of counselling.

I'd agree, but I suspect the problem maybe that if it is a male counselling seems to be a very unattractive option to them - though I do have a friend who is in his 60's who recently had counselling for feelings that arose out of how his large family treated him in his teenaged years - it did help.

We had the same cousellor for our joint sessions and he went to her for individual stuff. It is a midlife thing to a certain extent, basically if you don't deal with things they tend to come and bite you in the bum midlife (or later as your friend has found out).

I think this descibes the different type of affairs very well - the issues are always with the betrayer (and also the issues with the OW/OM). My DH's OW had, I think, her own issues if I am being generous but I try not to think about her too much now .

Well, yes, higgle, but by saying no. 4 is not a viable offering because "men don't like counselling", you're multiplying the original problem which is "men are lousy communicators".

Alongside the fact there's no such thing as "what men do" - each man is his own person - you avoided the root cause of affairs: selfishness. Your 3 options are all unilateral decisions, to be taken by the failing partner and giving no respect to the other's ability to address a problem jointly.

I agree with countingto10's option 4 precisely for the reasons she gives.

If counselling is an unattractive option to a male then he obviously doesn't feel that the relationship is worth saving, or have any respect for his partner, or any self-awareness.

Higgle your option No 2 might work if amended to say "Don't get involved with new person. Talk to your partner about how you are feeling and recognise that it may be you* that needs to be worked on, and not your marriage."

"I'm merely saying it would not always be wrong to say something is missing at home."

But that is irrelevant, Higgle! It is not the point! All marriages are missing something. From a scale of 0 - 10.

The point is, if someone is missing at home, you OPEN YOUR MOUTH. You give WARNING that you are unhappy. You CONVEY what it is you are unhappy about.

Then, the other person has the INFORMATION they need, to choose to do something about it, if they care about you, or choose not to do something about it, if they care more about themself.

After that you move to the next step.

Something missing at home DOES NOT justify the DECISION to involve a third party.

This is such an important point. Like Basil said, it is like saying assaulting someone is a symptom of anger. It's so illogical!

This is very interesting because it is not within my personal experience( thank goodness) but within the experience of quite few people I know. Maybe it is because my DH and I are natural communicators and sometimes have said ( during the course of a very long marrage) things that might be uncomfortable for the other person - like "you are getting fat and I don't like it" or "you need to spend more time with me" that we have stayed together.

It is interesting that in this thread the betraying spouse is seen as the one who needs to take action, whereas in threads where a husband has had an affair the wife seems most hostile and critical towards the OW - does this view - the blaming of the OW - mean it is harder to get the betraying spouse to accept responsibility?

From Justine's post in response to mine: "Not sure where the evidence re men and women being different stuff is from but we will check and amend if it's unfounded."

In the Emotional Affairs section, your own copy starts "Most men...."
There is then a quote from a poster called 'Maturer' in the Surviving an Affair section. The last bit of the quote about trauma is sound, but as throughout the whole piece, you should avoid making distinctions between men and women and implying that men behave one way and women, another.

Unfortunately the link to Is it Okay to Have an Affair is still there on some pages, the content of which is still diabolical.

I'd reiterate that I think you should take the whole section down and either abandon it, or commission someone who knows what they are doing and who will feel a responsibility to get it right not just for the site's posters and lurkers, but for you as its owners. This has not only failed the site's users, but you and your brand.

Higgle - just I believe that blaming an 'unhappy' marriage can a cop-out for a betraying spouse I also believe that blaming the OW can be a cop-out for a DW. (Yes I would say that, wouldn't I, having been an OW). It takes two to tango, I know, but it is the DH/DP of the betrayed spouse who has broken their vows/promises/mutual understanding of what is and isn't acceptable in their relationship, not the OW.

I don't necessarily agree that there is a lot of blaming of OW on the threads on here - there is a perfectly understandable venting of spleen - but most DW are advised on her to put the blame where it lies, with DH. If, however, the DW blames anyone other than her betraying DH then I could well imagine that he would hide behind that and not accept his full responsibility for his betrayal.

how about if you don't want a life of monogamy don't get married and make vows? those vows and being married is supposed to make the affair a non option.

i don't think a secret affair is an option except for an incredibly selfish person.

if you are not happy speak up, if you want to be with someone else then leave the person you are with. i'm afraid it is that simple in my value system.

i also think that people who live in a married and kids situation who have affairs are also cheating on their children and showing themselves to be poor parents.

people who live in a married and kids situation who have affairs are also cheating on their children and showing themselves to be poor parents.

... no, no, Santa, you haven't got it! People Men who live in a married and kids situation are entitled to live just the same as if they were dating, no kids. Silly old Wifey shouldn't allow the children to interfere with their rock-climbing, cinema-going, sex-on-the-stairs, romantic partnership.