men do confuse love and sex

[simplesimon]

Sneaking out of the shadows I suppose I am asking the Dads something although I can see it is a topic that has been covered before.

I love my wife she loves me but we have not made love in 6 years.

I think what scares me is the idea that she does not fancy me. More than that perhaps she is seeing someone else.

Help.

SS, I think you have to be. My h and I are now separated - long story - but while he left because he was/is having an affair, the problems set in when we stopped talking. Such a cliche, I know, but true. If you don't find time/create the energy to confront the issue I don't think there is any hope. And it's not a ten-minute conversation, it's probably months of what will be hard work, may seem forced but is vital for a future as a couple and a family. Unfortunately, as much as you can get used to not having sex, you can get used to not talking and just getting through the days/weeks - not really living them. And can anything be worse than it is now? She sounds as if she's retreated, proabably does still love you but can't remember why. Can't you surprise her? Turn up at her office and INSIST on some time together - even if it's a walk in the park. I'm sure friends would help out if they could.

Message withdrawn

'Does she love me?' What does she say when you tell her you love her?

'Is she having an affair?' I doubt it. As someone else has said, there is no time and no childcare, so I think you can get that idea out of your head.

As for the near future, I don't think I could love someone I saw so little of, but she may be made of sterner stuff than me, so I don't know.

Is she happy? Have you asked her?

I am still intrigued as to who you think is going to change the situation if you can't and as she isn't being invited to help make any changes.

At the weekend when you are both involved with your son, do you take him somewhere just the two of you for part of the time?

If you are really short of money, what would happen if you did something together when your son is asleep, like a romantic meal, etc? I don't want you to irritate you, but some of these types of suggestions haven't had any response at all. What did you think of the meal idea? Was it crap? Was it good? How might she respond do you think? You must both have time to eat. What happens when you snuggle up to watch your favourite program at night?

Wow dadslib, don't hold back, will you?
Simon, in case you aren't familiar with him, dadslib is a tad outspoken and impulsive, so please don't take it too hard.

One thing he said which does need saying over and over again - things won't be alright in the end if you just leave things as they are. It will all get worse. You are going to have to change something - it may or may not not be any of the things we've suggested, it might not be you but it probably will be aspects of your lifestyle. Perhaps if you went to relate - even on your own at first if you're worried about what DW might say.

S*-hawks, I'm supposed to be at work!

BTW, kind mumsnetters who helped me out with a situation with my DH not so long ago on a long and winding thread, especially one where Bossykate in particular knew exactly where I was coming from - do you see what I mean now????????
You can lead a horse to water.........
Just what do you you do with this??????!!!!!!!!

Simple Simon, I have followed this thread with great interest and feel I must post something - you said you wanted to hear from someone who is/has been in a similar situation. I was with a man for 9 years, the last 5 of which we did not have a physical relationship. We were very close in other ways and enjoyed each other's company and didn't have any children together so didn't have the excessive tiredness excuse, however I began to feel as though whenever I tried to initiate sex he just wasn't interested. This resulted in me having a totally meaningless affair, because I thought it was the only way to make him sit up and take notice of me again - I told him about it immediately. The outcome was (and it is very long and complicated) that I lost him because of this affair, which was the opposite of what I had wanted to happen. I know that if we had talked about it and I had addressed the issue sooner I would still be with him today. I found out when it was too late that he had desperately wanted us to start having sex again, but it had become too embarrassing for him to talk about. I thought he didn't miss it at all. Please take some of the excellent advice that has been offered here if you can. I wish I had had similar advice when I was going through this. Sadly I didn't have the courage to tell anyone at the time.

One thing that confuses me about your message - you say in your first post that your wife loves you, but in later posts I get the feeling that she is extremely cold towards you. How do you know she loves you? Do you still talk/laugh together at all? Sorry this is a bit rambling!

Email me if you would like.

No I agree with Dadslib. This is what SS needs to hear. SS asked advise from the Dads and Daslib is a dad (and a Real Man obviously,))

How old are your children SS?

ooooooooooooooook.

Yes, to a lot of the questions, I spend a lot of time with my son at the weekends, just the two of us, but inevitably it just means that she ends up doing the shopping or cleaning.

We do not snuggle, that is the problem.

I lose internet access now, so I'll see on Monday all the other reasons you think I am a hopeless idiot.

Simon, you are starting to sound like my DH, calling yourself a hopeless idiot. It's a kind of dodging of the issue - 'oh, I can't help it cos I'm hopeless anyway and everything I do is wrong so I don't have to do anything else' - that's my DH's attitude.

Shopping and cleaning while you have your son at the weekend is she? Does she work during the week? I hate to keep harping on about too much housework as it sounds like I'm obsessed, but I really think the problem is too much flaming housework! I thought you said she was at home all day? Why is she still busy with this at weekends?
You two seem to have forgotten how to have fun.

You answered yes to a lot of the questions. So lets see: My questions were:
What does she say when you tell her you love her?
Yes wasn't a valid answer here.

Is she happy? Yes?
Have you asked her? Yes?

If you are really short of money, what would happen if you did something together when your son is asleep, like a romantic meal, etc?
Yes is not a valid response here.

What did you think of the meal idea? Was it crap? Was it good? How might she respond do you think?
What happens when you TRY to snuggle? Does she push you away?
Yes is not a valid response here.

I realise you are very busy simon, but how important is this to you anyway?
I know it's probably not a fair comparison, but if your level of response on here is any indication of your level of response elsewhere .... do you get my drift? You seem to flit here and there and skirt some issues and focus on others.
Sorry, but I suppose it's best to be honest. If it's any consolation, I'll be crap in many other ways. Just ask my DH.

Well, then I think you shoul do the housework and shopping together as a family while you chat and listen to music. You will have it done in half the time and then you can do something fun together afterwards

Sorry SS but it sounds to me like you've given up already. You seem to think that you are doing everything in your power to make things better but that the problem lies with your wife. Obviously you are not doing everything otherwise there wouldn't be a problem.
You say you spend all your spare time with your son, well don't you think your son would be happier with happier parents? Can't you even take one evening off to spend solely with your wife? Put your ds early to bed?

YOUR QUOTE .... "The long and the short is 'does she love me'. I am not ungrateful but I do want someone to say that she does, and that somehow I can be sure of that. That my silly suspicions are wrong. That one day when our circumstances change we will be Husband and Wife again. That it will happen before I cannot take any more..... "

THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS ARE YOUR WIFE .... NOT US MUMSNETTERS ......

STOP DUCKING THE ISSUE ..... and yes I AM shouting ...
SORRY but I'm with Dadslib ..... I don't know you as a person SS so you cannot take these attacks from me too personally ... but you are driving me mad
You now have very little to lose ... CHAT TO HER!!!

Rant over

A spot of attention seeking on your part SS ???????????

Get her on the pc - we'll talk to her for you!!

I think I understand where SS is coming from. I , too , was stuck in a similar situation. It started after the birth of our first child and me being honourable and never pushing the issue let it sit for 3 years until I went down with major depression.

It wasnt just the lack of sex - it was the lack of the secondary aspects of closeness - cuddles, massage (she would let me massage her, but not the other way round) - the relationship was mainly give and take - I would be trying to do many things for her and get nothing in return . She now says that she was afraid to reciprocate in the small things leading to her pushing me away.

There are many , simple, things that she could do to help you IF she was fearful of sex.

In case your wondering, after a spell on Prozac , I decided that counselling was a better option and eventually talked through how to talk to my wife about the situation . After a few weeks of talking we got to the point where she would help me masturbate and after a few more weeks we had a occasional sex life .

This isn't an either or situation - there are shades of grey in between where she can meet you .

However , no amount of ignoring the situation is going to make it go away . You have to talk to her directly about this . Turn the tv off , put the sprogs to bed and spend an evening talking . Tell her that you want to be closer , more emotionally involved .

I can recommend the Relate 'sex in loving relationships' and the other Relate books .

Be careful you don't fall into the same depressive cycle that I was in - the world looks incredibly bleak and hopeless then you are down there .

Good Luck

James

SS-Some men are just nice and if you both know you have a "good" relationship, things will get better sometimes and worse sometimes. However, I have to say (and I am a woman) your dw either has a major personal hangup or she is being a really selfish cow! (WOMEN EVERYWHERE START SHARPENING THEIR CLAWS!) I relate totally to your situation-I would probably only have sex maybe once a month maybe (if I'm pressured) because what you don't have, you don't miss! This is so closely related to other posts where women are moaning about lack of libido/lack of sex etc that it seems unfair to you to judge you. HOWEVER-I'm with Dadslib here- if we hadn't had sex for six years, my Dh would have been a very unhappy bunny and to be honest, (OK, hands up if you've done this) I would have done it, not for me but for him. I love him and we've been together 12 years. It's like cake, it gets stale and you throw it out, BUT every so often you buy a new loaf (freshly baked) and it's quite nice to have a fresh bread "experience" every so often! You need to talk to her, your son must be small or he'd be at school by now. If he is, what the hell does she do all day?! and if he isn't, well that means, thinking about it, that he must be under 4/5 yerars and surely he goes to pre-school or whatever. This makes me think-if your dw is at home al day, what does she do, where does she go, does she have freinds (that you know about) and what the hell is she going to do when school looms and she has all day on her own? MAYBE when the time comes, she could work, more interest for her. more to talk about with the two of you and maybe you could drop your hours at work. (Are you doing all those hours at work because there is nothing to go home to?). Sorry to ask all these questions, but how do you two act in front of your child? Are you loving Mummy and Daddy or is the litte one not old enough to notice yet (because they will!) If me and my Dh have a row, the kids either gang up against us both or take sides, and whilst they know (deep down) that me and Dh love each other, we really try hard not to have major fights on front of them. I hope you get what you need-do you have anyone else to talk to, family, friends etc-you sound so alone and it cabn't be good for anyone in the family to be in this situation. Don't stop posting-people here may sound sometimes harsh but they wouldn't post if they didn't care..

Can I make a suggestion here? I haven't read the whole thread (sneakily looking at it while I'm supposed to be teaching - bad slug) so if I repeat anyone else's advice - sorry.

It sounds like what you have got into is a habit of no sex. Like all habits, this can be incredibly hard to break. There has been some excellent advice about gradually reintroducing non sexual intimacy into your relationship. What I suggest is that you should take time out with you dw to work on your relationship.

When was the last time you spent time alone with your dw? Is it possible to leave your child with a grandparent or aunt for a weekend? Take her away from the home conflicts, take her out of the everyday drudgery and treat her like a desirable woman. Before you start complaining about money ask yourself, what is more important, your money or your marriage?

Can I suggest Amsterdam as place for a romantic weekend getaway. It's close, realtivly cheap to get to by easyjet/eurostar/ryanair, has good museums, restaurants etc, and has other "attractions" (and no, I don't mean just the red light district) which may help to get you and your dw 'in the mood'.

I know this sounds like a trite, easy fix solution. I certainly don't expect it to fix everything overnight, but it worked for dh and I when we lost our libido after having the sluglet. We spent time together, just the two of us, absorbed some culture, got drunk and giggly on (ahem) chemical relaxants, and finally got out of the habit of no sex.

SS, you are clearly in some way getting something you want out of this situation, otherwise you would change it. Do you enjoy feeling martyred and in the right? Does passivity make you happy in some way? What is coming out of this situation that you like? Because there has to be something. You live a totally bizarre life - no time together, a total refusal to even think of changing things like having a single night out together or even staying in together. You say you haven't had sex for six years, but that your wife looks after your son all day - er, doesn't he go to school???
I'm actually beginning to wonder if this is an elaborate wind up.

Exactly Aloha, I think we've actually been royally trolled.

But no matter, because this thread has provided us with fascinating insights and great advice. It's certainly made me think and reevaluate, especially in the way I respond when I'm being given advice. I think there's a bit of SS in all of us.

Slug, I liked your weekend away idea. In fact, I might suggest it to my DH.

I know lots of couples who are just like mr and mrs SS and am surprised that some of you are surprised!

I wish I could offer some useful advice but I am not sure there is any way out of this .

If this is a "trolly" wind up, then I am really pi..ed off. I spent a long time last night, creating a conversation that I thought was helpful, not judgemental etc and if SS is a windup merchant, then thanks very much!! I let my Dh put the kids to bed last night, explaining that I was trying to help someone and now maybe it's not real??!! SS you had better reply NOW, or be there with a real explanation otherwise Jollymum will be turning into seriously Manicmum!! You have been warned!! (However, if you are genuine, I apologise and will talk to you anytime..).

I think Ss wants us to talk about sex.

I think he sounds drippy - as Dl says get a life - ONE child takes up a whole weekend for two adluts? does he never sleep?

Message withdrawn

he never told me why she is seeing someone esle/

I have GOT to disagree with you all. i think SS is NOT a troll and I can't think why you all think that!??
He's not asking anything pervy, quite the opposite in fact!

I does think MN'tters are getting a tad paranoid here!!!

Coddy - I know that dh and I hardly find time to do anything and we only have one child. Yes he sleeps, but by that point we are too knackered to utter a word to each other!
We are making a special effort coz we're TTC.... but I can totally understand how SS feels like there is no time.