men do confuse love and sex

[simplesimon]

Sneaking out of the shadows I suppose I am asking the Dads something although I can see it is a topic that has been covered before.

I love my wife she loves me but we have not made love in 6 years.

I think what scares me is the idea that she does not fancy me. More than that perhaps she is seeing someone else.

Help.

Only just seen this and I should probably change my nickname now but... wish it was my dh who started this... enough said!

SS - just seen the thread ... but you DO sound too good to be true. Caring, respectful, faithful ( the list goes on ) BUT not very assertive.
You sound that you have big issues in your marriage ... but remember that it is a TWO-way street. Somehow I feel that you aren't giving us all the details ( not that I WANT them ) but I feel that there are some things that you aren't telling us.
There must be reasons why your wife feels the way she does ... and sometime in the last 6 years you must have asked yourself about these feelings. What conclusions have you come to ?
You say that to the best of your knowledge you HAVE paid attention to your wife ( and lucky her ). So what could be the reason ??? Search your soul and think truthfully about it. All these dear and understanding Mumsnetters are giving you brilliant advice ( IMO ) - but still you appear not to have taken it ... What is stopping you ? What are you afraid of ?
I don't wish to offend - just want to give you a bit of a shake

I am suitably shaken.

I am not sure i can answer the questions, and I do feel suddenly quite defensive.

No, we hardly see anything of each other, yes, for 12 hours a day she stays at home and looks after our son, and looks after the house we live in, and she works too, as well as doing a lot for othe people, so in fact we spend maybe 2 hours a day together, and we are both pretty exhausted. I do as much in the house as I can, and the limit is time.

No offence, but while there has been a lot of advice, there is nothing that I have not tried to do, putting my heart and soul into it.

I am not going to "force" her to do anything, that is not my idea of how a relationship works. I suppose what I want is for her to notice that we do not have a relationship any more, and then to care about it. The reasons crystaltips? Well, she might be seeing someone else, I have a few small concerns, signs that I might have misunderstood. Or she might just not love me any more. The best case scenario is that she simply does not fancy me, and while I could completely understand that I do have an ego, and it is as fragile as the next mans.

Maybe I should shut up, as all I seem to have done is painted a picture of a very stupid man.

what signs? ( i speak as someone who knows about 2 affairs that the people think I dont know about!)

ss - you don't sound stupid to me.

(roscoe - you ARE named after the dog on Dike of Hazard arent you? :0 )

Dukes I meant

OOH no he was the pOliceman

SS ... I don't think you should be defensive ( though I would be after reading my post sorry ) I didn't want to sound too horrid. In your most recent post TBH you seemed to be facing up to things and admitting that there might be a few cracks ... I can SO understand your reluctance to confront the issue head on. Hearing what you don't want to hear might just upset the apple cart once and for all; and I can empathise why you want to maintain the equilibrium ( even though it might be fragile )
Thinking of you {{{{}}}}
Not that it helps - but you sound to me to be a very caring and senstitive DH ....

I advise you to see a relationship counciller if you want the marriage to work in the long term because if it is upsetting you after 6 years how are you going to feel after 16? I definitely think there is a problem, i'm not doubting her love for you but 6 years does seem a bit extreme. Not much help but i couldn't bare not to have sex with my husband for such a long time, it's such an important moment of sharing love and bonding. Even when my libido has been low post childbirth i still fancied it now and again. However, my husband advises you to get a mistress before you start resenting your wife for the absence of such an important part of a relationship!

Simon, I think both of you are sitting there waiting for the other one to notice there is something wrong and act on it.

TBH, you have tried it 'your way' - just waiting to see and hoping - for 6 years. I don't think it's going to work. Go back and look at Dadslibs earlier posts where he gives you lists of scenarios, as there is good advice there.

TBH, reading what you said about the 12 hr days, seeing little of each other, you sound so totally accepting of your situation, as if there is absolutely nothing in there you can change. (My DH used to sound like this, but he has managed to change a bit regarding working hours, at last). If there is really nothing about your daily lives together that you can change between you, then I suggest that this situation will not change and one of you is going to look elsewhere for comfort.

I may be being dense, but I can't see from your posts which part of the advice you have already implemented.

I've just read your post again and I think that she sounds as stuck in the situation as you do. You are both probably exhausted. There is nothing she can do to avoid being on her own with ds for 12 hrs a day. There is nothing she can do to make herself any less tired (and possibly lonely). All she can do is to wait for time to pass and get used to the loneliness (I am aware that she may have oodles of friends - so have I, but it's not the same as having a partner) - but sex etc may be an impossible luxury for her. After all, you need to be relaxed to have sex, not tired. You need to feel cared for physically, I think, as well as financially. I doubt it is possible to have a proper relationship when your lifestyle sounds so hectic. I don't mean to sound as if I'm blaming you for working long hours - I know you can't help it. It's the situation that's to blame. All I can say to you is that I couldn't possibly be intimate with DH in the same situation, as we would become like flatmates.

Agree. You don't sound stupid or any of the things you call yourself, just really, really sad and defeated. But nothing will change if you don't change anything - it seems to me you fear her leaving you so much that you are acting as if she definitely will - but that scenario actually only exists in your imagination. Please don't let what might happen paralyse you now. I think you must make some changes to ensure you spend more time together and build some non-sexual intimacy into what has just become a practical partnership. There has to be SOMETHING you can do - if not now, soon. Also make your weekends exciting so you have something to talk about - see a movie together - book the tickets yourself and book the babysitter yourself so she doesn't have to do anything except walk out the door. Go out for a night, invite friends round for dinner. Anything that will give you something to communicate about. If you're not talking about anything then of course you can't talk about sex. Things like feeling excited about talking about a film or play or concert can make you feel excited in other areas of your relationship. Sex is part of love, and even though like most women we do it less with a child and work etc etc, we do still do it. It's not normal to have no sex for six years if one of you still wants it, IMO. It's not fair on you and do have a right to it IMO.
I think after such a long period of celibacy sex probably seem incredibly embarrassing to your wife, and impossible to imagine doing. You do need to get your relationship right in other ways before the sex will come back. Come home early and bring her flowers and a bottle of wine. Go out to the pictures. Get a video you know she'd like to watch. Discuss it afterwards. Cook dinner together from a cookbook, drink wine while you are doing it - do anything that makes you feel closer. Sex will come out of intimacy, not the other way round IMO.

Agree. You don't sound stupid or any of the things you call yourself, just really, really sad and defeated. But nothing will change if you don't change anything - it seems to me you fear her leaving you so much that you are acting as if she definitely will - but that scenario actually only exists in your imagination. Please don't let what might happen paralyse you now. I think you must make some changes to ensure you spend more time together and build some non-sexual intimacy into what has just become a practical partnership. There has to be SOMETHING you can do - if not now, soon. Also make your weekends exciting so you have something to talk about - see a movie together - book the tickets yourself and book the babysitter yourself so she doesn't have to do anything except walk out the door. Go out for a night, invite friends round for dinner. Anything that will give you something to communicate about. If you're not talking about anything then of course you can't talk about sex. Things like feeling excited about talking about a film or play or concert can make you feel excited in other areas of your relationship. Sex is part of love, and even though like most women we do it less with a child and work etc etc, we do still do it. It's not normal to have no sex for six years if one of you still wants it, IMO. It's not fair on you and do have a right to it IMO.
I think after such a long period of celibacy sex probably seem incredibly embarrassing to your wife, and impossible to imagine doing. You do need to get your relationship right in other ways before the sex will come back. Come home early and bring her flowers and a bottle of wine. Go out to the pictures. Get a video you know she'd like to watch. Discuss it afterwards. Cook dinner together from a cookbook, drink wine while you are doing it - do anything that makes you feel closer. Sex will come out of intimacy, not the other way round IMO.

Love is shown by small thoughtful jestures rather than the odd roll in the hay. Remember that having friends round doesn't mean cooking - get a takeaway ... every little helps Good Luck

I do think all of Flamingo's advice is great - didn't read her post before posting mine. Have you honestly tried to do this? Even talking about issues in the paper makes me feel more connected to my dh. Getting angry/happy about the same things - or even different ones! - reminds me we are two people not just two parents.

Aloha's suggestions are great, especially the cooking together while drinking wine.
I think it's the doing things together bit that is absolutely vital. You say she doesn't give you the chance to help, but could you tell her that you've planned a menu one night and not to cook herself? Ask her to have a snack with your son so that you can later do the cooking together. (I can picture your face as you read this - you wanted sex, not more boring chores!) but if there are two hands making light work, not only is it over quicker but you might have some fun too.

It would have been impossible for me to explain everything, what we do do together, why we cannot do certain things, how little time we have, why I cannot be home more, because of my job, what I do do in the home, and how much I love her and always have done.

I suppose that these could all be understood as excuses but please while you can feel free to think of me as an insensitive idiot thinking with his trousers remember the title of this post.

What I miss is the relationship we used to have and I cannot see anyway that things are going to get better. We have not got enough money for a weekend away and barely enough for a night out. In fact because of all our other committments we can not have a night out even if we could find a babysitter because there simply are not enough days in our week.

Yes sex is an expression of our relationship that I am focusing on because it is a big obvious difference between this relationship and any others that we might have. I am also focusing on it because of the little things that suggest that she is having sex with someone who is not me. I do not want to talk about what they are because I do not want anyone to say 'yes, it sounds like she is having an affair' because although I cannot imagine when it is the biggest fear I have as it says that not only is our relationship over but that she has another relationship to replace the one I am mourning.

What I hoped was that someone, a Dad or a Mum, would be able to say 'I had this experience, being patient and trying is all you can do but it is enough, she loves you really she does'. But it seems that no one can say that, and that trying is not enough.

It is getting to the point where I am fed up with telling her I love her and getting no response I can believe. I want to scream and shout and cry and be angry but i know what would happen of course.

As it happens in the past few years although in particular over the last few months there have been opportunities for me to have stupid meaningless sex with 3 or 4 women, and I have politely turned each one down and I would not ever ever do that.

If she left me tomorrow I still would not.

I want to be with her, to be her friend and lover, until the day i die.

If she is looking after your son the 12 hours a day you are at work, when exactly would she have time to have an affair?

I can understand why you are scared, what I can't understand is why you won't fight (your long hours, your lack of communication, your embarrassment etc) to get what you want. Good relationships never come easy, you know. Sorry, don't mean to be cruel.

I have been fighting for 6 years and maybe I started all this off because I do not seem to have got anywhere.

Reading between the lines ....( to quote you ) "It would have been impossible for me to explain everything, what we do do together, why we cannot do certain things, how little time we have, why I cannot be home more,"

There's a big obstacle there that you are not telling us about isn't there ?
SOMETHING is stopping you change your lifestyle and make that break. I am not sure why you are not divulging EVERYTHING - and I totally respect that you choose not to - BUT that "something" is the barrier between you and facing the music.
I only hope that you manage to come to terms with whatever decision you make. However you claim that you are happy with your relationship otherwise .... to me you sound miserable. Hope you are OK

I just meant the dull detail Crystal - salary, hours, hose, where we live, family and so on - if I give too much away you might all know where we live, and come round and duff me up.

And just why would we do that!!! You do sound incredibly defensive SS, remember that we are only responding to your posts and what you say in them, we have no idea about your wife or how she feels.
But then saying that it's hard not to get so defensive isn't it? I hope you don't read this post the wrong way, but this situation reminds me of my sister. She phones me up to complain that her kids are misbehaved, that she and her dh never have an evening together, that she is massively in debt, that our mum never lifts a finger to help her, that she has no friends, etc, etc. I give her advice, I make practical suggestions to her, I try to help the best I can, but she makes excuses as to why she can't try this or that, how she's done this and it hasn't worked so she won't do it again, how I can't possibly understand her situation, etc. For me it is extremely frustrating.

Reading back through this thread there are so many suggestions, so much advice, but you seem scared to act upon them. You say that you want to hear from someone in a similar situation. Well that's not possible because your situation is unique to you, and whilst we can all sympathise with bits of what is happening to you, we can't possibly understand everything that is going on in your life.

Whenver someone comes up with a good suggestion, you seem to be saying, "yes but.....". Why is there a but? The only person who can change anything is you and your wife. You cannot be her friend and lover if you do not communicate with her. How can she possibly love someone who she only sees for 2 hours a day, and who is unwilling to take on some of her burdens? And I don't mean household burdens, I mean mental burdens.

You speak eloquently of your love for your wife, but they are only words to her, she needs actions. My dh could tell me he loved me till the cows come home, but his words mean less to me than gestures. I know he loves me when he puts down his newspaper and spends time just talking to me. When he comes in and notices how tired I look and offers to cook tea for me. When he arranges to take my dd off my hands for a couple of hours at the weekend. When he buys me a chocolate bar just because. Ok, you may be frightened to take the bull by the horns and you may be pushed for time and you may not have a lot of money to spend. But that doesn't stop you from taking 1/2 out to ask her about her day. Or to bring her some choccies home. How much is a bottle of wine? How much is a video to rent?

I understand that none of this is really what you want to hear, but I don't think any of us can provide you with any of the answers you are looking for. We cannot say if you wife loves you or not, if she's having an affair or not. All we can do is to offer advice and say how we would feel in that situation. I'm sorry if this makes you feel a bit 'got at', I can understand that. But I honestly believe that the ball is purely in your court and there is nothing more we can do to help. However reading these, you have a lot of peoples best wishes and we are all rooting for you. Take strength then from our support!

I will be blunt. To me you sound a bit self-destructive. You are going around in circles on this thread. Basically you need to be able to talk to your wife. Scream and slam some doors and then sit down for constructive "negotiations". You sound like you need to slam a couple of doors to me! I think counsilling is a good idea too!
If you cannot communicate with your wife, suspect she might be having an affair and you haven't had sex for 6 years, this is not a marriage anyway. If you choose to live like this without dealing with this issue properly, then you might be better off just getting on with whatever you've got.
If I was your wife, I would be much more impressed with you if you stood up for yourself and decided to sort things out!

Rhubarb, and others of course, I do all these things, the actions, the demonstrations, whatever you call them, and they are invisible for some reason that I do not understand. I do not do them conciously, they are things I have always done - I do not think I could remember when I last bought flowers or a present, because that in itself is not remarkable. I cannot remember when I last washed up or cleaned the bathroom because it is one of the things I do.

We do not get time together, as at the weekend we are both, together or seperately, focused on our son, me in particular as I do not really get to see him during the week.

The long and the short is 'does she love me'. I am not ungrateful but I do want someone to say that she does, and that somehow I can be sure of that. That my silly suspicions are wrong. That one day when our circumstances change we will be Husband and Wife again. That it will happen before I cannot take any more.

No, I am not very aggressive or assertive, I am not very good at standing up for myself. I never have been, but a long long time ago that did not matter.