Ladies who don't mind their DP going to lap dancing clubs ....

[nappyaddict]

Do you mind them having a dance in a private room where even though touching is not allowed it is common for the girl to sit and dance cms away from their crotch/face?

And haircuts and aromatherapy, gloves, don't forget. And that was perfectly eloquent.

I agree with the double standards in operation, but I am sure that you will have some robust responses to your post. Why don't we (as a group) feel entitled? Snowflake certainly does. Plenty of women do, in spite of the cultural pressure to do otherwise. Maybe we should all just go around not giving a flying fuck and operate under a permanent sense of entitlement to whatever we want and sod the consequences on the wider world?

Thank you AnyFucker that's what I was on about!

The poor menz, they die if they don't get folk to touch their nob at least once a quarter
I always think ffs just have a private moment with yourself and get on with the day...

I would be extremely upset if my husband went to one of these clubs and he knows that. I'm sure it wouldn't stop him going to one though if he thought he could get away with it!!

On the subject of all things seedy, did you watch X Factor last Saturday??!!

I see your point of view glovesoflove but I am a woman who regularly watches porn, I have had loads of ONS. I also think that all women deserve sex and should do whatever they want when it comes to sex. I think it is a womans right to expect a man to bother to please her, make her orgasm and listen to her needs. Same as vice versa. I dont see mens sexual pleasure as more important than womens.

I enjoy going out and watching men strip, male masturbation videos, sexy men etc. Just as many other women do and many men do. I dont need it, I just like it and enjoy it. Same as many men do the other way round. It doesnt mean I am devoid of human feeling, incapable of having relationships, some kind of rapist, see men as mere objects or that I am uncaring. These things just turn me on I see them for what they are. That is why I see no problem the other way round.

Again jess if a man has a woman at home that doesnt like it. It is up to that women to express to the man it isnt something she likes. He then either has to stop or they break up. It should be something discussed early on.

Linden,

Sorry I have not answered the qs directed at me. I was not ducking them but bathing my son. Snowflake, however, has more than eloquently and informedly answered them on my behalf.

The only thing I would take issue with Snowflake about is using the word "right" in connection with people's sexual needs. Rights are things like a right to clean water, enough food not to starve, enough warmth not to freeze etc. Having an orgasm during sex does not strike me as quite the same.

larry, do you think people have a right to buy access to another person's body, then ?

serious question, and really the one that is at the heart of this thread

It's interesting that women who maybe do seem to feel more "entitled", access porn/services that are designed for men, I am not saying that everyone who "likes" porn or lapdancers is coming from this place, but it seems to me that they're sort of buying into the whole male model of sexiness and that the pleasure they get from it is kind of to do with identifying with dancers/porn stars and has a lot to do with the consumerist fantasies of being the sexiest or the fantasy of being the "cool girlfriend" that have been sold to us by the patriarchy. If that makes ANY sense at all.

I also think that (straight) women often respond more positively to "sexy" women rather than men because they are generally much less threatening - I've seen a fair bit of porn in my younger days and the girl on girl stuff was rarely actively unpleasant, eg violent or whatever.

And I wonder how many (straight) women have discovered and explored porn, lap dancing, etc, by themselves, ie outside the context of a relationship or fantasy involving men and the male gaze. As a younger woman I wanted very much to be "sexy", I wanted my boyfriend to lust after me like he lusted after Tabatha Cash or whatever, and I think that is something that a lot of women feel and it can really colour their perception of porn or whatever.

I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say, I've been thinking about these issues and chatting about them with friends but haven't tried to write about them before

Larry - What I mean is that a person should expect the other person to care if they are enjoying it and having a good time.

I dont think it is right for a man to just do what they want and make no effort to please the woman. I would expect a woman (or a man if situation was reversed) to put up with that (altough many do put up with it).

I dont understand why people feel they cant have sex with who they want, or why they put up with someone who is only out for themselves sexually. Jess feels like she cant have sex with who she wants, or indulge in certain sexual things for fear of judgment. I dont understand why someone would feel that way personally.

Anyfucker - I dont agree with a right to buy a persons body but if a stripper is selling a service willingly then no problem.

glovesoflove - I dont watch mainstream porn as it doesnt cater for womens needs. I watch amateur. I dont respond positively to sexy women only sexy men as I am straight. I watched porn way before I met or went out with a man.

I just always liked watching men in RL and fantasising about sex with them. The sex industry services I access gives me a chance to do this and I find it a turn on.

Anyfucker,

Fair question. I have had lap dances but never more and, to be honest, I would find it distasteful. I am also faithful to my wife so it is never going to happen now.

I guess that, as a theoretical question, a person has the right to buy whatever another person is willingly selling. Note the word "willingly". It seems strange to me to condemn either side in a transaction in which both parties are happy.

However, I think you really need to be careful to define "access". Lapdancing is not "access" in the sense in which I would define it (assuming it is merely lapdancing and not prostitution).

snowflake, that last sentence is a complete contradiction

and another example of your closed-mindedness around the issue that in general society says it is ok to buy access to a person's body

in a truly humane society that "right" would not exist

That's my point Snowflake. Women get silenced into acquiescing. And that pushes the responsibility onto the woman to speak out which is actually very hard to do when you feel like a lone voice. And if I had beforehand it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. He was entitled to go, you see, because everyone else does!

It is pretty sad that, in this issue, no one gives a toss (no pun intended) about anyone else's feelings.

Sorry why is it a contradiction?

Larry, can you expand a little on the ego stroke thing? Do you think it is the belief that the woman is dancing for the man or simply the thrill of the power of his money? Or something else?

Jess - I know lots of women that dont allow their men to watch porn or go to strip clubs. Same as I know lots of men that wont let their partners go to strip clubs, or go clubbing or use sex toys.

I dont understand how someone would go if someone else says no. I have said to my husband he cant go to things many times in the past and we discuss it. My husband would never do anything that I didnt find acceptable and vice versa. Thats respect for the other person. If my husband rings from work and asks to go for a pint if I say no I would like you to do..... he would come home straight away as he wouldnt want to upset me. No offence but your ex sounds like an arsehole if he couldnt discuss this with you.

Hi Snowflake, I've had ONS too but I know that many people would be shocked if they knew.

I wasn't inferring that any person who gets pleasure from porn or stripshows is deviant or abusive, but just that there is a definite culture of men's RIGHTS to certain types of sexual titillation/release that are not widely available to women.

I don't think anyone has a right to see others naked or a right to be able to pay for a handjob. We live in a country where these things are obtainable but that doesn't make them a right any more than dishwashers or Ugg boots or maltesers.

Notjust,

It is a fantasy that a gorgeous 20 year old would be interested in a middle aged man, possible not in the best of shape. That is all. Not one that either party truly believes in but it can be fun for an hour or so.

As I said, in the same sense in which your hairdresser may say you look even more beautiful than you did when he first started doing your hair 15 years ago. You know it isn't true and so does he but it goes with the expensive haircut and is completely harmless.

larry, in this context, I define "access" as someone using or exposing their body in a sexually-charged way, or as them submitting to such an act upon their person, for payment

so, under that definition, I do include lapdancing and stripping as paying for sexual access to another's body

or else we would all be getting our promotions by rubbing our sexual organs in our boss's face (for example) and gaining social acceptance in the process

Not me, I have a Mumsnet haircut! I think I'm too cynical for that game anyway. Perhaps others are not.

I disagree on the harmless point, however I sense that there is no middle ground between us on that front, Larry. Thanks for the response, though.

When I said "shocked" I meant "would judge me and think less of me".

Snowflake, I think you are being naive at best when you say you can't understand why anyone feels constrained by societal norms regarding sexuality. If you said that you didn't but could see that others did that would be more credible.

Only 1000 complaints to the recent objectification fest on X factor.....heard on radio one nearly news today, Fearne Cotton seemed surprised in a 'why would anyone complain' sort of way.

It is a fantasy that a gorgeous 20 year old would be interested in a middle aged man, possible not in the best of shape

larry, do you really not see how pathetic that is ?

my DH would never think for one moment a lithe, gorgeous 20yo would be remotely interested in him (apart from his money, that is...)

and if he used our family money to delude himself that she was, just for a few stupid minutes, he would no longer be my husband

because that it what is is... stupidity in this context

some men need to grow up, tbh

I am quite aware my days of attracting 20yo's are long gone, and so is he

to have to pay to pretend otherwise

well, what more do I need say ?

"As I said, in the same sense in which your hairdresser may say you look even more beautiful than you did when he first started doing your hair 15 years ago. You know it isn't true and so does he but it goes with the expensive haircut and is completely harmless."

How on earth do you know that? Perhaps some men prefer grown women? The likes of Cheryl Cole are certainly more attractive in their womaness rather than the fuller faced late teen.

Am I missing something? My husband finds very young women unattractive, in fact he often comments how, now at 36, some of the girls in his office are young enough to be his daughter....

I said earlier that I refused to believe that men are that stupid, AF. Larry has changed my mind, which is something I would never have thought I would say.

It's things like this that make me wonder why on earth women don't have more power, politically and financially. That and the "don't know how to use the washing machine" thing by qualified engineers etc. But, actually, the joke seems to be on us.