💰 Archers thread #121: Brookfield digs for treasure, Alice & Philip try to bury the truth. Dish the dirt here if you dig The Archers. PS Send nudes.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you long to hear Pip again, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3853783--The-Archers-spoilers-thread-5-Cant-wait-for-7-02pm-Join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @LillianGish and @PersephonePromotesEquanimity for the title suggestions.

Current events: as @Bailey0703 has astutely spotted, it's Anti-Slavery Day tomorrow - could this herald the beginning of the end of the horses storyline? I do hope so. Horrible stuff, but what a blow for Kirsty. They're laying on the dramatic irony with trowel at the moment.

What do we think will happen to Alice and Chris? I can't see this pregnancy going to term and ending well. I don't think the marriage will survive either, giving Brian a chance to revisit his classic line about having to treat this as Alice's starter marriage.

Will Elizabeth end up on a date with Vince Casey? That would put the cat among the pigeons at Lower Loxley.

Over to you ...

I can’t remember the specifics of when Chris and Alice were considering going to Canada but I feel like that decision - to reject an exciting period abroad and instead remain in the small world of Ambridge - was probably a turning point for Alice and ever since she’s felt as though her wings have been clipped.

Sorry but what career? Alice is responsible for this, not Chris. When have we ever heard him stifling her ambition? There is nothing to suggest that if she got the job of her dreams he wouldn't support her decision.

Sometimes I think I'm listening to a different programme...

And the problem with comparing alcoholism to leukaemia, @MissBarbary is that no one shamed you for having leukaemia. Even if you develop lung cancer after smoking for 60 years people tend to be sympathetic. Alcoholism is much more like obesity I think. “Well I can just have a drink and enjoy it, why are you addicted, you disgusting person” is very similar to “Just eat less and move more” - simple on the surface but actually infinitely complicated underneath.

Sorry but what career? Alice is responsible for this, not Chris. When have we ever heard him stifling her ambition? There is nothing to suggest that if she got the job of her dreams he wouldn't support her decision

Chris was the blocker to her taking the opportunities in Canada and the reason she has confined herself to small companies in commuting distance.

Chris has made zero sacrifices to be with Alice and has benefited financially.

Alice once had ambitions to travel and work just like many other bright young engineering graduates. She has stifled that for Chris's benefit and he has never acknowledged that probably becuase he can't comprehend wanting to live out of the village where he grew up.

I feel like that decision - to reject an exciting period abroad and instead remain in the small world of Ambridge - was probably a turning point for Alice and ever since she’s felt as though her wings have been clipped

I agree. I remember at the time thinking "don't do it Alice" and it would be interesting if they do follow her through to the root causes and find it in her frustrations in suppressing all ambition. I suspect Brian would understand better than Chris ever will.

Wasn't the Canada thing scuppered because of Chris's accident?

Lots of people don't live their dream life. Alice actually had a very nice life, with her horse, a good job, a caring and capable husband.

Alice has always been a spoilt, selfish brat

I seem to recall you have the same views on Lily whilst Freddie and Chris are blameless individuals, victims of the women around them.

We are unlikely to agree on the subject of either of them.

Wasn't the Canada thing scuppered because of Chris's accident?

He has already made it clear there was a choice. The accident left her feeling guilty for even considering it.

simple on the surface but actually infinitely complicated underneath

Exactly. And with lung cancer people don't keep trying to press "just one cigarette" on you. If living with another heavy drinker (like Chris) who is less susceptible then its going to be even harder to recognise a problem until its too late.

Thanks for all the title suggestions - annoyingly cheerful it is! My family would confirm that I'm extremely good at being annoying, but we'll see if that translates to annoying titles.

I'm just back from a run and knackered now but will apply what I laughingly call my mind to this later today.

Given the amount of family Alice and Chris have locally it’s vanishingly unlikely that they would have no contact at all with the baby

That's a shame - I like my story better!

Obviously Kate very much wants a baby to play with ... Don't know if her history of child abandonment would go against her as guardian of her niece/nephew? (I know fathers abandon children too ...)

I just don't see the point in apportioning blame. Alice may well have thrived better living away from Ambridge but she would still be Alice and she might have become dependent on alcohol anyway.

I just think that this is going down the route of Ambridge Health Fairy intervening and the child being born with zero ill effects from constant heavy drinking during and beyond the first trimester. They may just focus on Alice’s long term recovery and her ongoing struggles with it

That would be a massive cop-out and send quite the wrong message (if you care/think that that is the programme's business). Similarly a miscarriage would be a cop- out, though it's pretty clear that at least at a subconscious level Alice wouldn't be too disappointed by that outcome.
Realistically, the options are realisation that the damage has already been done, and termination. Or, an affected baby, shame, revulsion and disapproval, and lots of intrusive involvement from various agencies. Which would be fun for Emmur, but I don't see them carrying it off particularly well as a long-term storyline.

With cancer, people do ask if it was self-inflicted. It's about the first thing they ask.

Quick comment on something said a couple of pages back: Alice wasn't Brian's favourite. Debbie was.

It might be that the corrosive effect of not being the favoured child twenty years ago has so blighted Alice that she has had to fall back on the bottle to fulfil her need for attention, but it seems unlikely. Her jealousy and horrible behaviour to her mother over Ruairi ten years back might have filled her with belated guilt which caused her to seek to forget it by getting drunk, but that too seems unlikely. Perhaps the strain of having married someone who adored (and still adores) her and was prepared to give up his entire life and career in England in order to fulfil her whim to up sticks to another country because her first job didn't make her senior management within six months of her arrival there was too great for her...

Sorry, but as a victim she really doesn't hack it.

@Prestissimo thanks for coming back. However, would it not be important to lay it in the table re the potential harm that the baby has already suffered so that she can decide whether or not she wants a termination? I felt that option was not even mentioned and it seemed wrong (ie a pro-life agenda) not to have mentioned it.

@Augustbreeze

I wonder if, given time, and depending on outcomes, this might end with Emmer and Alice coming closer together.

Not initially though.

Oh definitely not initially.

Good point, August. Emma’s always had a problem with the family (aka Susan) fawning over wonderful Alice, in contrast to less educated, makes-bad-decisions Emma. When all this comes out, Emma might be able to put her jealously aside- she can be kind, remember how she was with Will after Nic died.

Ohh, here’s a thought. Emma and Ed may be given temporary custody of the baby if Alice is still recovering (maybe not custody’s, but to look after the baby at least). JD will want to obviously, but she could be considered too old...that would cause ructions!

@CheetasOnFajitas I think the problem is that the damage is unquantifiable at this stage (as far as I know). It’s a bit like Down’s - can be devastating or can be relatively mild. It’s not a definable problem as with some other developmental issues in pregnancy.

Also there are loads of things that could have been discussed. This was a first consultation between two very distressed patients and a GP who probably has never met them before. You can’t cover everything in one go.

I would think that irl Alice would now have a discussion with her Obstetrician and possibly a Paediatrician as well (?at this stage, maybe later on) in order to discuss the ongoing pregnancy and her options and potential paeds at delivery, follow-up etc.

I feel for Alice. I wish she wasn't pregnant. She is desperately alcoholic.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Quick comment on something said a couple of pages back: Alice wasn't Brian's favourite. Debbie was.

It might be that the corrosive effect of not being the favoured child twenty years ago has so blighted Alice that she has had to fall back on the bottle to fulfil her need for attention, but it seems unlikely. Her jealousy and horrible behaviour to her mother over Ruairi ten years back might have filled her with belated guilt which caused her to seek to forget it by getting drunk, but that too seems unlikely. Perhaps the strain of having married someone who adored (and still adores) her and was prepared to give up his entire life and career in England in order to fulfil her whim to up sticks to another country because her first job didn't make her senior management within six months of her arrival there was too great for her...

Sorry, but as a victim she really doesn't hack it.

No she really doesn't. I can't recall specific examples but I definitely recall often listening to TA and thinking how nasty she is.

[quote CheetasOnFajitas]@Prestissimo thanks for coming back. However, would it not be important to lay it in the table re the potential harm that the baby has already suffered so that she can decide whether or not she wants a termination? I felt that option was not even mentioned and it seemed wrong (ie a pro-life agenda) not to have mentioned it.[/quote]
I actually thought the doctor was on the point of suggesting a termination.

@C8H10N4O2

Alice has always been a spoilt, selfish brat

I seem to recall you have the same views on Lily whilst Freddie and Chris are blameless individuals, victims of the women around them.

We are unlikely to agree on the subject of either of them.

I never said Freddie was blameless. I object to the idea that female characters with the exception of Kate, don't get called out for their appalling behaviour and in the case of Lily, praised to the heavens for very little. Alice has been unpleasant and selfish all the time I can recall.

@MissBarbary me too, which is why I was so taken aback when he went straight to talking in a way which, to my ears, seemed to suggest that it was not too late to have a healthy baby if she did the inpatient rehab. And of course that is what Chris and Alice WANT to hear so v important to make sure they don’t assume that. @Prestissimo I take your point about not being able to cover everything at that appointment but time is ticking re a termination so would it not be at the top of the list of urgent considerations?

(Also, presumably she would still be able to terminate now simply because she felt she was not mentally fit to raise a child, even one which had no additional needs?)

I think what I am also saying here is that the doctor might have been a bit swayed by the fact that Chris was in the room bleating on about what was best for the baybee.

Where is Oliver living these days? Is he still with the Grundys?