💰 Archers thread #121: Brookfield digs for treasure, Alice & Philip try to bury the truth. Dish the dirt here if you dig The Archers. PS Send nudes.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you long to hear Pip again, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3853783--The-Archers-spoilers-thread-5-Cant-wait-for-7-02pm-Join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @LillianGish and @PersephonePromotesEquanimity for the title suggestions.

Current events: as @Bailey0703 has astutely spotted, it's Anti-Slavery Day tomorrow - could this herald the beginning of the end of the horses storyline? I do hope so. Horrible stuff, but what a blow for Kirsty. They're laying on the dramatic irony with trowel at the moment.

What do we think will happen to Alice and Chris? I can't see this pregnancy going to term and ending well. I don't think the marriage will survive either, giving Brian a chance to revisit his classic line about having to treat this as Alice's starter marriage.

Will Elizabeth end up on a date with Vince Casey? That would put the cat among the pigeons at Lower Loxley.

Over to you ...

@Augustbreeze - sorry, I knew there was something I'd forgotten. These are the two shows I mentioned; their websites can explain better than I could.

I May Destroy You

I Hate Suzie

(Weirdly Billie Piper looks pretty much exactly as I have always imagined Alice. Whereas Kate's actor might look exactly as I imagine, if only she were considerably less ethereal.)

@theThreeofWeevils

I personally can't bear the terminology of a woman being a 'vessel'

The terminology is less of a problem than the mindset which sees her as such. Chris would never call Alice that, but it seemed to be how he was thinking.
I wonder how long it will take him to work out that this foetus has no future?

Heaven forfend that he might be worried about the damage his ghastly wife is doing to their baby by her stupidity and selfishness. I haven't a shred of sympathy for her.

MoonJelly
Keri Davies was saying something on Twitter fairly recently to the effect that the archivist's job was less necessary because they could check things via IT and that the responsibilities had been shared out amongst other staff. Sounds like a bit of a recipe for disaster - checking computer records depends on the individual writer and editor actually remembering to check and knowing what to look for

You've put your finger on the precise problem with the digitised archive: the writers need to know what they don't know, and if ever there was something it is hopeless to expect of a person it is knowing they don't know something.

If it has a decent search engine it might be possible to put in "Jennifer cottages refurbish" and hope to get some answers, but would they know they needed to do that, if they first wrote for TA in 2011? (And if it is anything like the search engine on the BBC website all they would get is "nothing found" even if what they put in was "Jill Lemon Drizzle" or "Heather marmalade".)

Tonight's was more like normal TA at its best

for you @SparklingLime - I’m so sorry, a dreadful situation to be in. Please don’t feel sorry for me - I get to walk away from those consultations pretty much intact. But I hate that I can’t help. And in fact as I talk to families in those situations I often know that this is the beginning of the end of a relationship. Horrible.

So you'd say, @Prestissimo that tonight's depiction was rather too optimistic on the part of the GP - he definitely seemed to give them the impression that she'd get a place soon? What on earth do you do for a pregnant woman in that situation?

@AmICrazyorWhat2 I think we still don’t really understand what makes an alcoholic, but twin and adopted people studies suggest that there is definitely more to it than just our environment. There isn’t a single gene that you inherit or not, in the way that you inherit blue eyes, but a combination of the right (or wrong) genes plus an opportunity to drink and sufficient cause to do so to excess makes an alcoholic. Unlike eye colour, of course, it’s not a foregone conclusion either - you won’t necessarily be an alcoholic just because of your genes but you may have a predisposition to it.

I think it’s interesting that the familial aspect of this may come out now. Alice obviously never knew her grandfather and so never witnessed his drinking. I’ve always been quite surprised at Jenny’s and Lilian’s relaxed attitude to drinking. Neither of them ever obviously reflect on the worries of having had an alcoholic parent. Maybe because it was their father (and because Peggy drinks without any comment) they simply felt it would never affect them. I don’t remember any conversations between Jenny and any of her children about their drinking behaviour and “remember Grandpa Jack”. I suspect they consider themselves ‘above it’ now - they seem the type of family to regard alcoholism as slightly grubby and beneath them. After all their social climbing and money-marrying they are now ‘good enough’ to drink socially, not addictively in the way Jack Archer did. Maybe. I don’t know if that makes sense. But I suspect they feel that alcoholism doesn’t happen to ‘nice girls like Alice’, regardless of her ancestors.

It's a bit like "middle-class professionals don't abuse their wives", isn't it.

And about as accurate.

Ooh I haven’t listened yet @Augustbreeze but I expect so - it’s nearly always the case that things are much easier in soaps. Mind you, who wants to hear about Alice being on a waiting list for the next 18months? Not me - I can go to work for those conversations!

What would I do? I would offer support to the patient and her family. I would advise that only she can stop drinking - no one else can do it for her. That scene in the bathroom sounded like rock bottom to me, but who knows. I would tell her that all is not lost, because the last thing she needs on top of her guilt and anxiety and terror is despair. I would point them in the direction of the perinatal mental health team (and hope they didn’t refuse to see her because she’s an addict...) and the local addiction services (and hope they would prioritise her for the sake of the baby as well as her own). I would suggest she tries out lots of different AA meetings to see if she can find one that suits her and isn’t just full of middle-aged men. I would speak to her midwife and Health visitor and probably social services as this is a child in need and the family need additional support. If she could afford private rehab I would suggest she consider it.

And I would keep everything crossed that she could stay off the drink.

I would also, if I were the doctor or a midwife, make sure that I saw Alice without her husband being present, as is her right as the patient. It might be that I had to call him in for help in dealing with her, but she is owed some one-to-one medical time.

I think you're completely right about the Jack Archer offspring, Prestissimo. Though I suspect there's a degree of writerly neglect as well. It would certainly have added something to the Alice story if, over the past couple of years, we'd had Peggy uttering the words "Your father ..." whenever her children became tired and emotional.

I have no ideas, Gasp0 - but it is thrilling to see the thread racing along again!

I personally found it much worse than the Helen/Rob stuff. I liked that TA was an escape from the world at the moment but while this continues I might switch off for a bit.

In the early days of setting Alice up to be an alcoholic I thought Chris did occasionally comment on Alice drinking too much. It seems a bit odd he’s only just noticed she drinks a lot.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I would also, if I were the doctor or a midwife, make sure that I saw Alice without her husband being present, as is her right as the patient. It might be that I had to call him in for help in dealing with her, but she is owed some one-to-one medical time.

YES. This. Absolutely this. Appalling that we did not hear this happening or the option being offered.

Yes, I thought midwives had to see their patients on their own, even for a few minutes, to ask about possible abuse. Did this happen with Helen?

The point with Alice's booking in appt was that it was on zoom and therefore difficult to get her on her own. (Although they could have requested that Chris leave the room for a while.

Helen definitely saw the midwife on her own, then midwife visited at home and was charmed by the lovely husband......

I just had a horrible thought on where this story line could go, hopefully i'm wrong and Alice will recover in detox/rehab and baby will be fine.

I was surprised that the Doctor seemed to be saying “there is a risk to your baby if you carry on drinking” as opposed to “you’ve been drinking for 16 weeks of pregnancy, your baby is likely to have suffered harm already”.

When he said 'Children's services', essexmum777?

I had a bad feeling too. Things may just get beyond the point where Aldridge money can save the situation.

And then we'll see if Jenny and Susan really can support each other - or whether they'll each be flinging blame at the other's child ...

I'm a long time lurker on this thread, I grew up listening to the archers and it's been my go to listen for decades.

The Alice story line is very familiar to me - I've taken a pregnant relative to the doctor because she couldn't get her daily fix and was in a terrible state. She was offered a residential place and did a six week detox, ultimately it wasn't successful and her dc was removed into the care of her paternal grandparents. I wasn't asked to leave the consultation at any point and the GP would regularly phone me (with her consent) for a family members perspective on what she was saying to him in consultations, sadly the two rarely concurred.

we'll see if Jenny and Susan really can support each other
Why should they? Are you assuming there will be a baby at the end of this and the grandmothers will be responsible for caring for it? Sod that. Maybe Neil and Brian should support each other (on the way home from The Bull, most likely).

Thanks for the insights, @Prestissimo, I’m ignorant about addiction as I’ve thankfully never had to deal with it IRL.

Re. The grandparents stepping in. I really hope this doesn’t happen, Too many Ambridge characters seem unable to cope without lots of familial support ( esp. the Archers/Aldridge’s/Carter’s) and I’d like to see some personal responsibility and independence for a change-y’know, like real people in their 30’s and beyond.🤣

Three - I'd say that would be unlikely, by reason of unhelpful proximity.

I'm thinking Alice might have her child removed completely. With subsequent tearing limb from limb happening between grandmothers.

Carnage amongst Archers generally makes me gleeful, but this ...

the GP would regularly phone me (with her consent) for a family members perspective on what she was saying to him in consultations, sadly the two rarely concurred.

That sounds dreadful, Anotherdrifter .

But I'm sorry to say it would work extremely well as radio drama ...

(Welcome, btw!)

thought it was commonly known that stopping suddenly is dangerous for alcoholics?

I think its very little known. Rather like the difficulties avoiding alcohol in recovery as fuckwits will persist in pressing drinks on people they know have a probleme (oh its just one, it's Christmas, don't you want to help me celebrate, etc).

I don't particularly like Alice but I do have sympathy, it's an illness not a choice. Even if you're a total dick, it's not something you choose to do

Well quite. There is usually an incident or unacknowledged stress somewhere which starts it and in a society which both surrounds people with drink but treats the problem as something to hide its a tough addiction to stop. Years ago I remember a specialist in the area saying alcohol was the toughest addiction for most of his patients, not least because going cold turkey can actually cause heart failure/death.

I'd like to see the slow digging into reasons for Alice's situation and where its rooted. Spending her adult life limiting herself to fitting into Chris's idea of their future can't have helped.