Is this naughty behaviour?

[Mordekain]

I’m getting regular reports from 4yo DS’s school that he’s being badly behaved. For example he:

Chased another child with scissors going snip snip (yes this was naughty)

Roared like a dinosaur at the other children and didn’t stop when he was told to (is this really naughty?)

Threw a teddy bear at another child.

Sticks his face right in other kids faces and pulls a silly expression.

Gets frustrated when he struggles to change his clothes for PE and gets upset and shouts instead of just calmly asking for help.

Gets upset when asked to stop doing a task he’s enjoying or tidy up.

Honestly most of this just sounds like normal 4yo behaviour to me. Am I being too soft? Or are they whinging about nothing?

Have you read the whole thread? I think there is a lot more than that going on.

I know you are saying you don’t feel he displays any autistic behaviours at home but all the things the school describe are social communication difficulties. If you’ve never seen him interacting with friends or other adults (other than your mum and dad) then it’s impossible for you to say if he presents similar to in school.

Op I don't believe your ds is naughty either but its clear that he is struggling at school, autism can present in a variety of different ways just because he is verbal etc doesn't mean he doesn't have asd. If you find social situations difficult can your husband maybe take the lead with this at weekends? Take ds to soft play or something to allow him more opportunity to mix with other children outside of school.

I don't think your child is 'naughty' as such, but I think he's been very poorly socialised and has been sent to school ill-prepared for the challenges of being in a busy classroom and taking direction from the teachers. As pp have highlighted, there may be other issues as well which it is worth looking into.

All reception children have a phase of settling in which may involve doing silly things (my DC has also recently started school and has had a few incidents of silly behaviour) but the difference is that they quickly settle down and realise that they need to do what the teacher says. So the teacher should only have to say once 'No running with scissors, it's dangerous' and then the child should adapt their behaviour. Most children behave far better for their teachers at school than their parents at home so it is a concern if your DS doesn't think he has to listen to the teacher, or is unable to do so.

I think it's important to recognise as well what your DS has lost through not playing with or having interactions with other children outside of nursery so you can start thinking about how you could help him develop these skills. I know many people turn up their noses at 'playdates' or don't think they're necessary, but ime children learn so much about generally expected standards of social behaviour and how to adapt to different environments from playing at friends' houses. 'We only eat in the kitchen in Sam's house', 'We don't go upstairs in Arlo's house' and 'We need to tidy up before we get more toys out in Lyra's house' are all useful lessons for children about different rules in different settings, alongside the inevitable give and take that comes from playing with friends rather than by yourself. Building social connections and hosting other people may not be something you particularly want to be doing (and it may also be something that you find very hard), but it's worth trying for your son so he has opportunities to learn those social lessons and develop those social skills which his classmates at school will be learning and developing.

He doesn’t sound like a child with autism, he sounds like a child that has had severely limited social interactions for his age and has not been taught that he’s not always allowed to do what he wants when he wants. He would have learned not to shout in other children faces or chase them with scissors or that sometimes he has to stop something he’s enjoying if he’d just had a few play dates.

You have had plenty of opportunity to teach him to dress himself so there’s no excuse for that problem continuing. Just leave enough time in the mornings for him to do it, and remember to show him how to turn clothes the right way round. You could crack that this weekend if you wanted to.

I find it hard to believe in this day and age that anybody would still associate autism with only being non verbal etc.

On the off chance that any of this is real, as others have said, you should consider that neurodivergence is genetic. But I think that's what you wanted us to say.

You've now left the hassle of parenting your child to his teacher. Congratulations, excellent parenting style 'if it's too much of a hassle I'll leave it to the teacher', good luck in trying to get him to eat healthily or do his homework in a few years.

I wouldn’t worry about him just yet, he sounds a bit boisterous and young for his age but will soon develop skills to interact socially.

autism in females is very different to males, females mask and intergrate more. Autism is an umbrella term. Autism takes different forms, someone can be highly intelligent and verbal, managing independently in the community with a job and house yet struggle with relationships.

I hope you can appreciate the thoughts and opinions of the very many posters here who have told you that you have done your child no favours by not encouraging independence and allowing him the run of the show.

He needs boundaries and parenting.
I work in an infant school and whilst this behaviour isn't necessarily uncommon, it definitely stands out.

It is very easy to notice the children who have clearly been brought up with manners, respect, independence and thoughts for others and those who have not.

You also really do need to look into the autism spectrum because your view of autism is incredibly blinkered. Shockingly so.

I would also hazard a guess that you are quite clearly on the spectrum too. That's nothing to be ashamed of.

Work with the school and nip this behaviour etc in the bud now.

Unfortunately the word Autism gets thrown around for everything at the moment.

Have you posted about issues with your son before @Mordekain ? Your writing style and description of you and your DH’s quite isolated life rings a bell. IIRC, the other thread(s) also suggested that you may be neuro-divergent hence your issues with socialising.

As someone who is naturally quiet and introverted, and a bit socially awkward if I’m honest, I have found all the socialising around parenting quite an effort. Chatting to other parents at baby groups, nursery runs, school runs, clubs and activities etc doesn’t come naturally to me! But it does help to have that social connection and arrange play dates or going to the park together.

I am so glad my children didn't have to go to school until 6. At 4 they were at home playing.

Even if they aren't at school if they are meeting other children in any setting they need to learn not to chase others with scissors or shout in their faces. It's nothing to do with formal 'schooling'. It's at home where these social norms are learned.

Oh come off it op. Being a good parent means sometimes doing things you don’t want to do. You might not want to make friends and socialise but your child NEEDS social interaction. I’m introverted but I make sure I put myself out there, join clubs classes etc because my child needs me to for their development, they need to get out and about and witness social interaction. No one is asking you to be best mates with these people, just interact!

I think this is unfair on the Op and quite an idealistic view of the world.
Every single time I have a review with teachers about my autistic child they point out that no one would be able to pick her out as being ND. They know her diagnosis, they understand her issues and she so far gets the support she needs ( used to be I had to push for it, now it's showing in itself).
These are professionals who know and get this stuff but still in some level they see the obvious stuff first and as ' more severe'. Its getting better slowly but from what I see it's because parents of ND kids are getting more used to having to push for recognition of the child's individual issues due to diagnosed neurodiversity as the teachers often only see it as a list of signs/symptoms and really don't understand what the spectrum for ASD for example is.
I had another teacher in a club recently who states she knows about ASD and regularly teaches children with ASD tell me in all honesty that my child doesn't autistic at all. She also has other issues.
I don't have the time or inclination to discuss our realities with Every professional who genuinely ghinks they know better ghzn families and clinicians.
So no I can quite understand that most people don't really know until it affects them. I was the same!

@Awumminnscotland I think that's pretty unusual/unlucky for you to have had several professionals say that to you.

My DD is also autistic and for context doesn't fit a clichéd "low functioning" profile - she passed the 11 plus, is independent, has friends and "normal" interests. She masks very well at school yet no professional has ever said to me that she doesn't seem autistic. The only person who has ever said that is my mother.

I maintain that nowadays most people especially professionals and parents of school aged children who use social media understand that not everybody with autism is non verbal or having rainman meltdowns all the time. I think this is a goady thread personally.

In some children I think their autism becomes more obvious as they grow older though @threegoodthings. When they are younger parents can think 'oh they're just little', but the differences become more obvious as they develop. When my DS was five I didn't know he had autism, and his teachers had no idea, but it became very clear later on. And yes, teachers did say to me that they didn't think he could possibly be autistic while he was on the diagnostic pathway.
Many autistic children who are verbal aren't diagnosed in the early years. So clearly it isn't always obvious to the lay person and sometimes not even to professionals such as teachers when children are very young. The spectrum is so wide and presentations differ.

I'm surprised the teacher suggested ASD because those behaviours, coupled with other things you have said sound more indicative of ADHD then anything else.

I had another teacher in a club recently who states she knows about ASD and regularly teaches children with ASD tell me in all honesty that my child doesn't autistic at all

I can’t stand this attitude. I bet money these people don’t go round telling parents their child isn’t asthmatic and their inhaler is unnecessary. Or telling parents of kids in a wheelchair they aren’t physically disabled.

There’s a time and a place isn’t there. OP doesn’t see these things as a big deal at home - but obviously at school and around other kids everything mentioned is disruptive and annoying for other children. 4 year olds are very able to understand consideration for others. They are not toddlers anymore. I don’t think the child is autistic - the OP doubting whether this is unacceptable behaviour says it all surely? He’s been taught this is ok. He’s been taught other people don’t matter as long as he’s having fun and allowed to ‘be a four year old’.

@BessieFinkNottle I still think it's unusual for a professional to say it AFTER a child's diagnosis though, which is what the PP was talking about.

I know that ND isn't always apparent when they're young - I had no clue that my DD was autistic at 5yo either. But there's a gulf between not spotting/understanding the signs yourself, to not even entertaining the possibility because "I know an autistic child who is non verbal but mine can talk"

Generally I think if a teacher flagging something to you , it generally means that it is out of the ordinary so I'd take it on board. It might simply be that he was socialised enough due to Covid or there might be a another issue there.. I'd keep doing what you're doing but I'd work with the teachers to help.

That's a good point. I'll bear that in mind for the next time I need to say something

I don’t think he’s really being that naughty

Unfortunately they do. I think the issue is that he hasn't previously mixed with other children.

You don't have to do play dates - sign him up for footie, rugby or whatever he likes. They learn lots of social skills from these - lining up, taking turns etc.

I think you do also need to get over not wanting to mix - it's about him & you don't need to become best mates with these people.

Autism can be hereditary. Are you/could you be autistic OP?