Is this naughty behaviour?

[Mordekain]

I’m getting regular reports from 4yo DS’s school that he’s being badly behaved. For example he:

Chased another child with scissors going snip snip (yes this was naughty)

Roared like a dinosaur at the other children and didn’t stop when he was told to (is this really naughty?)

Threw a teddy bear at another child.

Sticks his face right in other kids faces and pulls a silly expression.

Gets frustrated when he struggles to change his clothes for PE and gets upset and shouts instead of just calmly asking for help.

Gets upset when asked to stop doing a task he’s enjoying or tidy up.

Honestly most of this just sounds like normal 4yo behaviour to me. Am I being too soft? Or are they whinging about nothing?

You've got to keep in mind they may well be telling you things just because they want you to understand the context when your son talks to you about school. I don't think he's being awful either, but they're probably thinking of times when a child comes home and says 'the teacher said I was naughty - am I?!'

There is a really wide spectrum of behaviour that is normal. I don't know anything that'd let me comment on autism etc., but I think it's fair to remember that it's not rare for a teacher to be working with a child with some kind of neurodiversity or learning disability - for them, it'll just be part of the routine to have a question in the back of their minds. Much as you or I might hear our child sniffle and think, damn, I ought to do a covid test to be safe, even though I am absolutely sure DC just has the regular cold all the others had last week.

My cousin has an autistic child and she’s non verbal and unable to play with toys, sometimes violent and she won’t sleep. My son isn’t like that.

You really need to do some reading about autism and the symptoms. You know that it affects everyone differently?

@Mordekain
"I don’t see what I can realistically do other than tell him to stop misbehaving and remove privileges as punishment? I’m not at school, I don’t see him interacting with other kids, I can’t discipline the behaviour as it occurs."

How about teaching him to dress himself and not letting him have his own way all the time?

You might benefit from a parenting course. Try your local Children’s Centre. If they do ‘Incredible Years’ it is really good.

I think the best thing to do is listen to the school - work alongside them and ask what they think you can do to help him settle in and calm down at school, which may include setting more boundaries at home by the sound of things.

Perhaps a reward system for good behaviour when it comes to changing tasks/settling down at home would help? But work with the school, they are coming to you because this is an issue for them and it sounds like he needs to work on calming down and considering other people's feelings a bit more, so it'll be to everyone's benefit, including yours - but most of all his.

Christ. He sounds bloody hard work (and badly behaved) and you sound like you oblivious about it.

No - it's not normal 4 yr old behaviour.

I might add, my 8 yr old has ASD and ADHD and didn't behave like this in reception ( or in other classes since)

You ask what you can realistically do? Start parenting and put your foot down. He needs boundaries and discipline fast.

You’ve just described my child.
A great talker (from 18 months onwards full sentences and amazing vocabulary). Amazing eye contact. Interested in the world around her. Knows loads of stuff. Plays ‘normally’ (according to societies set definition of ‘normal play’), shares with others. Behaviour at home not challenging because everything is calmer and she has more control.

guess what?

at Playschool and school, she also got up in other kids faces/personal space at school, got upset stopping an activity when she didn’t feel done yet, for upset tidying away, made impulsive decisions similar to the scissors incident, struggled changing for PE and struggled to ask for help rather than getting loudly frustrayed quickly,

guess what else?

By year 1 she was diagnosed autistic and a year after that with ADHD.

You have a very stereotyped view of what an autistic child does or doesn’t do and take some time to look beyond the narrow and dated ‘signs of autism’ you might be surprised to find that he might well be showing signs of being autistic.

If it’s not that perhaps he just has very lagging skills and needs social intervention supports to help him meet the challenges school brings. It’s very different from home and any struggles become much more visible.

Either way he doesn’t sound ‘naughty’ he sounds like he is struggling and needs support and if you engage with school they might be able to help with that by creating a nurture group for him and other little ones that need a little bit of extra attention to help them settle into school life.

immediate consequences when behaviour isn't good enough
I’m not at school so I can’t act immediately. I don’t see this behaviour happening. He isn’t doing it at home because there are no other kids at home for him to throw things at or yell at etc. When I have seen him play with another child he’s seemed fine. All I can realistically do is speak to him at the end of the day and remove privileges if he hasn’t behaved.

The behaviours the teacher is describing do sound like they could be due to autism.

Going right up into kids faces - a lot of autistic children struggle with understanding peoples personal space. Pulling silly faces - a lot of autistic children struggle with social communication so pulling a silly face could be his way of asking if they want to play with him or another social communication difficulty.

Throwing something at another child - again could be due to social communication difficulties, could be done in a silly/friendly way of saying ‘let’s play’ or in a frustrated way instead of saying ‘please stop/leave me alone’

Shouting and getting frustrated instead of asking for help - a lot of ND kids just don’t naturally understand how to communicate appropriately in this situation. A lot of ND children struggle with fine motor/getting dressed.

Roaring like a dinosaur and not being able to stop when asked. He cooks he doing this as a type of stim (it’s common for ND kids to make repetitive sounds like this). Again, ND kids wouldn’t necessarily ‘get’ when it’s not appropriate to roar like a dinosaur/that they need to stop when asked in school.

Gets upset when he’s asked to stop a task. Autistic children often struggle with transition and/or being asked to stop when they aren’t ready. An NT child is likely to recognise that yes they are upset to get asked to stop but it’s not really socially acceptable to make a fuss in school when asked by a teacher. A ND child wouldn’t necessarily pick up on this social nuance so would make a fuss because they are upset, regardless of whether it’s socially acceptable or not.

It could be you’ve naturally adapted how you work at home (letting him carry on with a task until he’s ready to stop for example) in order to accommodate him. A lot of parents of ND children do adapt without even realising it. Then when the child goes into an environment like school without these adaptions, they struggle to cope and the behaviours the school describe come out. He may not behave that way at home as you’re naturally in tune with him and parent in such a way he doesn’t have difficulty.

Chased another child with scissors going snip snip (yes this was naughty). Very naughty

Roared like a dinosaur at the other children and didn’t stop when he was told to (is this really naughty?) Silly, but typical boy behaviour tbh

Threw a teddy bear at another child. Not ideal but at least it wasn’t a harder object

Sticks his face right in other kids faces and pulls a silly expression. Typical tbh

Gets frustrated when he struggles to change his clothes for PE and gets upset and shouts instead of just calmly asking for help. Yes, naughty

Gets upset when asked to stop doing a task he’s enjoying or tidy up. Yes, naughty

So typical of them to throw the autism card down on the table. Just sounds like a typical immature little boy (and he’s 4, he is going to be immature!)

You sound very closed off to the school’s expertise here. No you don’t have to agree but be open to their concerns. Your son sounds like he is struggling for whatever reason. He will have a lot happier school life if these issues can get resolved. Like others said, my son in year 1 has his ‘naughty’ moments with us but generally at school he respects social cues and boundaries. I am concerned at your wording when you say “I probably should have made him do it.” It’s not about ‘making’ him, it’s allowing him some space to gain independence. ‘Do you want to try putting your shoes on?’ We all rush sometimes but it’s so important to give him a chance to do things for himself. and teach boundaries.

Does he do clubs outside of school or at the weekends? That would be a another place for him to practice following instructions if you’re not able to do that at home

Don’t worry about it - he will grow out of it. He hasn’t been in school long and he is finding his place in the pecking order. If he was acting like this in year 2 I’d be more concerned but I’ve seen worse in Reception

Well that pretty much explains it.

This is on you.

You've simultaneously babied him because you don't have time to let him dress himself, whilst allowing him to do as he pleases, when he pleases, for as long as he pleases.

Whilst I'm sure this made life easier at the time, it's made school much harder for him because you haven't made sure he has learnt the basics required.

Children need us to give them the time it takes to learn life skills - like getting dressed themselves. They also need to learn how to navigate a society that has schedules and boundaries. A society where people can't just do as they please.

It's not because he's an only - it's because of the decisions and actions of his parents.

It could be you’ve naturally adapted how you work at home (letting him carry on with a task until he’s ready to stop for example) in order to accommodate him
I just don’t see why I’d tell him to stop when he’s enjoying it and being no trouble, and we don’t have anything else we need to do or anywhere else we need to be. Should I tell him to stop doing a task just for the hell of it, in order to teach him how to stop when I say so?

This ^^ it does sound as if your child has never learned any boundaries and you don’t sound open to changing how you deal with him.

Does he do clubs outside of school or at the weekends? That would be a another place for him to practice following instructions if you’re not able to do that at home
I wish. Literally every club I’ve enquired about has a 2 year waiting list. Some clubs have kids on the waiting list from birth. I don’t know how to get him into one of these clubs when there’s no spaces.

My DS was like this at school from 4 and was diagnosed with ADHD when he was 9.

He's now 23 and absolutely thriving at work.

Sounds like very normal 4 year old behaviour to me. Obviously work on things like getting dressed and giving other people space but I definitely wouldn’t be punishing him for what happens in school.

But as you're learning now, it's not "just for the hell of it". 🙄

He's now in a place where he NEEDED to know how to do this, and the people who should have taught him didn't bother. The result is he's being told off.

What happens when he does have to leave a task? To eat dinner, to go to school, to go to the shop?

Yes. Because he's going to get a very negative view of himself if he doesn't learn to transition when asked, because he will be repeatedly told off by his teachers.

Help him by beginning to teach him empathy and understanding. Help him by saying no to him sometimes. Teach him that no means no (getting into other children's personal space when they're asking you to stop is not ok). Stop excusing his behaviours.

The thing is you're not putting him in situations where he is likely to present that behaviour. You don't insist he dresses himself. You don't limit his choice of activity to set times, or make him stop doing something unless he is bored of it. Does he pick up and put away his own toys? I can't believe he is beautifully behaved all the time, what happens at home if he throws a toy or gets over the top with silly faces, or he is shouting loudly in the house? Does he do what he is asked usually?

What I am saying is that you can support and reinforce the school's efforts by creating the situation at home to an extent and teaching your son the good behaviour you are looking for in that situation. Until you see him responding to these situations, you don't know what he's like, and unyil he practices these situations he's not going to know what good behaviour means.

Our DS was much calmer and easier to manage in his home environment when outside elements weren't involved.

That's what causes us to take so long to see supper.