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Original poster

Is this naughty behaviour?

202 replies

Mordekain · 14/10/2022 21:40

I’m getting regular reports from 4yo DS’s school that he’s being badly behaved. For example he:

Chased another child with scissors going snip snip (yes this was naughty)

Roared like a dinosaur at the other children and didn’t stop when he was told to (is this really naughty?)

Threw a teddy bear at another child.

Sticks his face right in other kids faces and pulls a silly expression.

Gets frustrated when he struggles to change his clothes for PE and gets upset and shouts instead of just calmly asking for help.

Gets upset when asked to stop doing a task he’s enjoying or tidy up.

Honestly most of this just sounds like normal 4yo behaviour to me. Am I being too soft? Or are they whinging about nothing?

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user1468105798 · 15/10/2022 01:30

leccybill · 15/10/2022 00:54

I'm very gently going to suggest that you yourself might be on the autistic spectrum too.

As a mother of 6 children , 4 of which have completely different functioning levels of Asd and also grandmother to a non verbal, stimming, grandson, I have to quietly agree.

Creameggs223 · 15/10/2022 01:44

Maybe that's the problem you are brushing off his naughty behaviour as o he's only 4!!! Chasing kids with scissors throwing toys not stopping when asked you need to look at your parenting style how will he learn this is not acceptable if you don't teach him!!!

mathanxiety · 15/10/2022 01:54

It's not 'naughty' and school should be able to deal with all of it because it's normal, fairly boisterous behaviour for a 4 yo.

If he never has quiet, focused periods, and if his interactions with other children all consist of chasing with scissors, making faces, etc, then I'd be concerned.

He seems like a child who needs fairly frequent breaks for physical activity, and also somewhere he can go to take a little quiet break. The frustration when changing for PE is probably his way of expressing a feeling of being overwhelmed in general.

It's absolutely ridiculous that a school expects 4 year olds to change clothes during the school day.
My DCs went to a school where they wore their PE clothes on PE days.

Onceinnever · 15/10/2022 02:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Wtf !
What is the op guilty of exactly? Not teaching him to dress himself and not socialising him outside of his nursery hours. And she shouldn't have him?! Don't be ridiculous.

This thread is turning into a bit of a pile on. Yes, the behaviour isn't ideal. But he is only 4.

Josette77 · 15/10/2022 02:38

I also think it may be worth considering if you are on the spectrum as well.

mathanxiety · 15/10/2022 04:08

Agree with @SarahAndQuack wrt the school environment for 4 year olds, and that it does not take child development into account. Expectations on all fronts - academic and social-emotional - are unrealistic.

Stevenage689 · 15/10/2022 06:17

Getting changed is part of the early years curriculum. Because it's important that children learn.

1AngelicFruitCake · 15/10/2022 06:24

SarahAndQuack · 14/10/2022 23:07

Im an early years teacher. My heart sinks when the parent says ‘Oh they’re only 3, they’re only 4 etc’ Do we really expect so little of our children?

Do you think it really is to do with expecting so little, though? I am going off on a tangent, but .. 3 or 4 is very little. In many countries, children are not in formal education at 4, or even 5. In many countries, it's not assumed that a 4 year old child will be starting to learn to read. But it's not clear that teaching a child to read early actually helps later outcomes. It's quite possible it only deprives that child of other experiences, and adds to the pressure on them. I think there are many ways in which we expect too much, not too little, of small children.

For years I taught at university, and I can tell you, it's very that a child who's been hothoused at age 3 turns out to have enough resilience to cope well.

With respect, your specialism is older students and mine is Early Years. It’s nothing to do with academics! It’s about having conversations, introducing them to social norms early on. Helping them to understand if you scream in someone’s face then they won’t like it. That if you throw something at someone they will probably avoid playing with you. Unfortunately this little boy hasn’t learnt those things yet and either he has additional needs or it’s how he has been brought up and the reception teacher will need to teach him these things.

Yes 3 and 4 year olds are little. They need lots of exposure to how to interact with others, modelled by their parents so they can get along with other children. The minute a parent who I’m trying to broach something with says ‘Well, they’re only 3 or only 4’ I despair because if every parent said this then we’d have no time to do anything productive and it’d be chaos.

I’ve noticed parents with money but not necessarily time are often the ones who come out with this. I’m not sure if that’s because they are being defensive over their child or because they are surprised that they’ve been expected to do more.

1AngelicFruitCake · 15/10/2022 06:32

SarahAndQuack · 14/10/2022 23:28

Well, I did point out it was a tangent?

But, actually, I don't actually think there is a huge gulf, at age 4, between the skills needed for getting dressed independently and the skills for reading. I have known many four-year-olds who could begin to read, but couldn't manage buttons, or had tantrums because they'd been asked to put their knickers on. It's not unusual.

It is hothousing to make your four-year-old child act above their age - whether that's in skills we'd later see as 'academic' or just practical personal care.

I do see that the OP keeps adding information that makes it sound more and more likely she does think her child has autism, and perhaps I took the first post more literally than it was intended. But I also think there are lots of posts on this thread that are just ridiculous.

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Yes but not screaming in peoples faces, not throwing a teddy at someone , trying to put your clothes on, following simple instructions are age appropriate! 3 year olds are capable of these things even 2 year olds can attempt these. This child is 4. it’s honestly not expecting a lot! I wouldn’t say a child capable of any of these things at 4 is going to exceed expectations because they’re just typical of that age. It worries me that someone educated to your level would see these things as ‘making a child act above their age’.

girlmom21 · 15/10/2022 06:37

OP you really need to step outside your comfort zone to help your DS' development.

Try downloading the Peanut app where you can meet other parents.

It sounds like he just doesn't know how to behave when he's not the main focus. He needs to learn to be one of many,

OperaStation · 15/10/2022 07:05

Mordekain · 14/10/2022 21:46

They’re acting like he’s the Antichrist and I don’t think he’s really being that naughty. He’s four! And now they’re saying his naughtiness suggests autism - I don’t think being naughty is a symptom of autism?

He’s being naughty and scaring/endangering other children.

It’s really horrible when kids shout and scream in the faces of other children. It’s happened to my daughter in the playground a couple of times (always boys) and the parents didn’t do anything to stop it (probably because they’re boys) and it really upset my daughter.

I think you’re downplaying this.

OperaStation · 15/10/2022 07:09

1AngelicFruitCake · 15/10/2022 06:24

With respect, your specialism is older students and mine is Early Years. It’s nothing to do with academics! It’s about having conversations, introducing them to social norms early on. Helping them to understand if you scream in someone’s face then they won’t like it. That if you throw something at someone they will probably avoid playing with you. Unfortunately this little boy hasn’t learnt those things yet and either he has additional needs or it’s how he has been brought up and the reception teacher will need to teach him these things.

Yes 3 and 4 year olds are little. They need lots of exposure to how to interact with others, modelled by their parents so they can get along with other children. The minute a parent who I’m trying to broach something with says ‘Well, they’re only 3 or only 4’ I despair because if every parent said this then we’d have no time to do anything productive and it’d be chaos.

I’ve noticed parents with money but not necessarily time are often the ones who come out with this. I’m not sure if that’s because they are being defensive over their child or because they are surprised that they’ve been expected to do more.

Show quote history

I completely agree with your comment about parents who have money but not time. Some of the worst behaved kids at my daughters school have been brought up by nannies. The nannies don’t have the authority to correct bad behaviour and are often very meek.

Fe345fleur · 15/10/2022 07:11

Absolutely he's only little and not the antichrist. But he does need to follow some social rules that mean every child in his class can learn and be happy. Shouting in other children's faces is upsetting for them, for example. So it's worth engaging with the school rather than discounting what they are saying.

whatsgoingon101 · 15/10/2022 07:15

Mordekain · 14/10/2022 22:18

Try to go with an open mind as some of your posts come across as very defensive
I just don’t see how he can be autistic. He’s verbal and articulate. He knows loads of stuff. He points and shares things. He makes eye contact. He plays normally and doesn’t line up toys. He sleeps normally. His behaviour at home isn’t challenging. I’m not seeing any autistic behaviours. Naughty isn’t autistic.

As a teacher at a special school, I can assure you all of these qualities you've listed doesn't rule out autism 😊

All the behaviours the teachers have mentioned did concern me a little bit. But then again I don't work with 4 year old autistic students, ours are 7-16.

Work with the school, they're just trying to help!

urrrgh46 · 15/10/2022 07:21

Can we PLEASE stop labelling this child's behaviours (& others) as naughty! He's 4 - ALL behaviour is communication. He's NOT naughty.

I also take with a pinch of salt that the school is trying to help - they're trying to make their life easier and manage a classroom full of 4yr olds. Usually with one adult (max 2). Actually understanding the problem or child doesn't come into it.

NCHammer2022 · 15/10/2022 07:21

Mordekain · 14/10/2022 21:51

Yes he attended nursery for his free 15 hours for 9 months before starting school. They didn’t seem concerned about him. Although they said he had a hard time mixing, because he’s an only child and prior to nursery he was isolated at home until he was nearly four because of Covid.

Why was he isolated at home? My only child is the same age and apart from a 4 month period in the first lockdown, she went to nursery, activities, saw friends and family with children that age - covid was very hard but it wasn’t for 4 years.

whatsgoingon101 · 15/10/2022 07:23

SEN school teacher here again-

OP you say you don't want his friends and their parents round as you don't like social interaction. Your thinking sounds very fixed...

I don't want to offend you but do you have any more traits that would indicate autism?

P.s. please remember autism/ADHD are not negative. They just help explain why people are how they are.

Thurst · 15/10/2022 07:25

I might be totally off the mark here but I’m interested to read that you have a family member with autism and you don’t like socialising. You also seem to have quite a solutions based thought process and a direct style to your writing.
Have you considered that you may be neuro diverse yourself? There are lots of us on mumsnet. There is a self assessment tool that is handy if looking at traits of ASC. It’s not perfect for women but it can help to give a you idea of it’s something you want to explore.
AQ self assessment

Ellie1015 · 15/10/2022 07:28

Everything on your list is naughty. Doesn't sound malicious but still naughty.

Speak to your child about how other people may feel about being roared at or having teddies thrown at them.

Also teach that he must listen to the teacher and do as she asks. She has 30 children to look after so it is very important you do what she says etc.

Ask the school how you can help. If they would give you a brief update each day there could be some sort of sticker chart at home for good days and no sticker for not so good days. Any dangerous behaviour like chasing with scissors and i would be confiscating something.

CaptainMyCaptain · 15/10/2022 07:33

mathanxiety · 15/10/2022 01:54

It's not 'naughty' and school should be able to deal with all of it because it's normal, fairly boisterous behaviour for a 4 yo.

If he never has quiet, focused periods, and if his interactions with other children all consist of chasing with scissors, making faces, etc, then I'd be concerned.

He seems like a child who needs fairly frequent breaks for physical activity, and also somewhere he can go to take a little quiet break. The frustration when changing for PE is probably his way of expressing a feeling of being overwhelmed in general.

It's absolutely ridiculous that a school expects 4 year olds to change clothes during the school day.
My DCs went to a school where they wore their PE clothes on PE days.

Its not normal though. If it was all the children in the class would be behaving that way but thankfully they aren't.

As a Reception teacher I had children changing for PE. Some of them found it difficult but we persevered even if it took almost the whole lesson - its part of Physical Development to dress and undress. The shouting part is not acceptable.

Running round the room annoying other children and refusing to stop when asked is not normal and you wouldn't want your own child being chased with scissors.

Itsallok · 15/10/2022 07:40

Your lack of effort to socialise your child is harming him. Your comment that no-one wanted to be your friend is very telling - and frankly very strange. There is a gap between being quiet and literally never having a friend at all. I suspect the PPs are right, you need to look at ASD for both yourself and your child. He might have a shot of escaping from the future you have set him up for.

ghostsandpumpkinsalready · 15/10/2022 07:56

He sounds like a spoiled child who needs to hear the word no from his parents 🤷‍♀️

Arriettyborrower · 15/10/2022 08:04

Thurst · 15/10/2022 07:25

I might be totally off the mark here but I’m interested to read that you have a family member with autism and you don’t like socialising. You also seem to have quite a solutions based thought process and a direct style to your writing.
Have you considered that you may be neuro diverse yourself? There are lots of us on mumsnet. There is a self assessment tool that is handy if looking at traits of ASC. It’s not perfect for women but it can help to give a you idea of it’s something you want to explore.
AQ self assessment

This, absolutely this, so sensitively written Thurst.

Op, I would really recommend the AQ self assessment, I believe two of my children are on the spectrum and one other is on pathway to diagnosis for ADHD which I strongly suspect I have too.

It has been so helpful for understanding behaviours within my own family and then helping others understand them.

I would not be surprised at all if you, your husband and your DS are all neuro diverse, I mean we all are to some degree!

MilkToastHoney · 15/10/2022 08:11

Agree with others that it sounds like you may also be ND. Quite a lot of what you say and your thought process comes across as ND😊

A lot of parents do discover they are ND as adults when it’s highlighted their child is too.

There are some great support groups for ND adults and you may find it easier to make friends with other ND adults.

I’d definitely look into that for yourself. I’d also see GP/school nurse about DS, tell them school have concerns and see if you can get him put on the pathway.

MilkToastHoney · 15/10/2022 08:23

It’s sad reading you have never had any friends. If left without support, your DS could be in the same position as you throughout childhood and as an adult.