Teacher grabbed my DDs arm and pulled her over

[craftyoldhen]

My DD was queuing up for lunch today, she was upset and crying because her friend was being unkind. There has been a few friendship issues recently

The teacher asked DD what was wrong, and asked her to go to the quiet room with her to talk about it. DD said she didn't want to talk about it - this is because she doesn't trust the teachers any more, she says if she goes to them for help she just ends up in trouble. She tried to walk away, so the teacher said "don't walk away from me young lady", grabbed her arm and pulled her, accidentally knocking her to the floor.

Is this acceptable, especially given she wasn't been naughty, she was just upset? For background she is 7 and has suspected ASD.

"endlessly having to stop everything to deal with your DC"

Where do you get that from past? The OP says her daughter has suspected ASD.

Did you get it from your detailed knowledge of Autism or Aspergers and how it presents in children?

No? Thought not!

Can I please stress that past is NOT a teacher!

The teacher has dealt with this inappropriately. You do not drag a child by the arm under any circumstances, there ARE ways to "encourage" a child to move if it is essential ( we have Team Teach training every year even though we very rarely need to use it) but with children with ASD there are also times when confrontation needs to be avoided. The teacher was in the wrong, what the OP needs is reassurance that it wont happen again.

PastSell, I find your daughter's teacher's remark about girls being bad at maths "abhorrent", as you do. I don't think that I could be understanding (as you are) because the teacher was trying to comfort your daughter. To say something like that you have to have that attitude inside you, which is unforgivable in my opinion.

I also find it unforgivable to say "don't walk away from me young lady", to a crying child, even if the teacher is frustrated and tired. This attitude should not be part of any teacher's makeup, in my opinion.

Maybe not unforgivable, but it would need a sincere apology to get past this, for me.

Not/ Raisin

I think ASD children aren't just like any other child. I also don't think it is fair to label them with their disability. So I do get where you're coming from on the patronising thing - but it was just meant as a 'handle' to distinguish children with autism/ asperbers/ similar spectrum disorders from those without such conditions (which seems wordy).

I get better language could be found and my apologies about that - but I think a conversation about actual uptake of resources/ loss of learning time vis a vis other children does need to be had and too often parents of disabled pupils (especially disruptive pupils where staff and parents are starting to get a bit about the benefits of their inclusion in mainstream school - and I'm specifically thinking about an autistic boy who virtually attacks pupils most mornings - including flipping a girl out of her wheel chair - saying this so you digest where I'm coming from with following statement) .... too often parents of disable pupils pull the 'horrified at your politically incorrect language card' when what they're actually saying is I refuse to recognise the point your making here - because it is going against what I want.

I think many schools/ parents are quietly having these conversations - and are concerned about integration of some pupils in the mainstream. I hasten to add I dont' mean all - but for some mainstream school education (although perfectly desirable) isn't great for those that have to be in class/ school with them.

For the parent of the disabled Y3 girl - falling out of her wheelchair has resulted in more breaks of bone (she has brittle bone disease) - I can assure you she's very clear that she'd like that boy excluded - and no I don't think ASD comes into it one way or the other. I think it's more a case of why should his needs trump her needs!

I can only apologize regarding language selection causing offence - but I do think it necessary to point out to all concerned that often it can be hard going having [please insert prefered wording for ASD Not/ Raisin] in mainstream schools and very tiring/ trying for teachers/ TAs - and that may be at root of what transpired.

'I s this acceptable, especially given she wasn't been naughty, she was just upset? For background she is 7 and has suspected ASD.'

Yes, she has been naughty.

It may be harder for her to learn things to do with communication and behaviour. But walking away from a teacher whilst they are talking to you is being naughty. Can you help her grasp that?

I am a team teach trainer and lifting and carrying a child is defintely not a recognised restraint. You are allowed to do something 'unusual' as a one off in the best interests of the child as long as it's reasonable, proportionate and necessary but then risk assessments must be carried out and the behaviour plan revised along with positive handling plan with a clear outline of what you'd do if that situation arose again.

No restraint uses grabbing - as clam said its open palms and a guide.

Also worthwhile looking at tony attwood aspergers guide as there's a good bit about children not forming trust with adults. I gave it to DS schoolwhen his teacher thought he should just talk to her rather than keep it in and explode.

Past

They are pupils with a disability , not "disabled pupils".

He is a boy with autism not "an autistic boy".

It is Aspergers not "asperbers".

The y3 girl is a wheelchair user.

You may think this is semantics or political correctness, which tells more about you.

The OP was looking for advice/comment on a specific incident that happened to her 7 year old. She wasn't looking to start a debate on inclusion.

No doubt it is the mainstream schooling of children with SEND that has prevented your child from being "stretched", thus preventing her mathematical genius from being recognised; a view you are sooooo willing to air.

And it's notinaminutenow but feel free to continue with your infantile use of Raisin.

The teacher behaved inappropriately. If your daughter was crying, said they didn't want to talk about it and walked away, the teacher should have moved themselves. Countless children over the years have done this to me and I have never once grabbed their arm to pull them back. What kind of lesson does that teach? Children learn by example...

They could have walked alongside your dd, rather than physically pulling. They could have tried talking about other things in order to try and calm your dd down before asking again if she'd like to go for a chat. They could have manoeuvred themselves to stop your DD in her tracks. So many other options.

youare is absolutely right. Palms open, guiding the child. She wasn't hurting any other children, it doesn't sound as if she was posing a danger to herself. There was no reason for the physical restraint. It sounds to me as if the teacher lost her temper.

The school may well have a procedure for circumstances such as this - ask to see it and see if it references children who have additional needs. As a child with a potential diagnosis of ASD then the teacher should have been even more sensitive with the use of physical restraint and should understand that perhaps the 'procedure' cannot be followed to the letter, for every single child.

FWIW, I bet the teacher is mortified and has spent a great deal of time wishing it hadn't happened the way it did.

I'm sure the teacher is aware that they handled it badly and perhaps the school needs to review how they do things (perhaps involve the OP), but the OP recognises that it was an unfortunate accident and I'm sure the teacher feels very guilty.

Now I've properly woken up and had coffee, found this gem buried in your post past

"...but I suspect that the teacher may also see other children's needs as equally important and may feel your ASD DC is monopolising staff time (hers and TAs) at the expense of others. It's not unusual for ASD children to be hard work. Over time that can build a lot of resentment."

Classy past!

Thank you notinaminutenow you have just saved me a whole lot of typing.

Your comments to past are spot on.

I have only once witnessed a child being carried kicking and screaming at my DS's school and that was because he was trying to escape from the main gates after being dropped off! If this was the case I would be thankful to the teacher for ensuring my child's safety. I think it really all depends on the circumstances

I am a TA and I have never heard a TA or teacher express resentment at having a child in the class with ASD.

If that's the case that a teacher is resenting a child for having a disability then they are totally in the wrong job

It is not rude to say you don't want to talk about something.

If I was asked if I wanted to talk about something, I said no and the queue I was in moved forward (which I think people are missing) I would move forward too.

Precisely Yonic, the teacher asked a question she didn't give an instruction

I'm a teacher and the only time I'd consider grabbing a child's arm is if they were about to run into a road or something similarly dangerous. Handling a child is not an appropriate way to deal with them not following instructions.

"Don't walk away from me, young lady" sounds like quite an angry phrase as well.

Op this was handled badly. My ds2 a 12 and has high functioning aspergers or asc as they now like to call it. He would have done exactly the same as your daughter, said he didn't want to talk and walked off. Had a teacher tried to guide him physically it wouldn't end well. Thankfully his school are aware that if he says he doesn't want to talk then he doesn't want to talk! And to try and insist on engaging with him will result in him shutting down.

It wasn't handled well, you say there have been other issues? Only you will know through dealing with the school whether this can be dealt with and you can continue to work with the school or if you need to look at other options

I am trying very hard to ignore a certain posters comments but if as you say the boy with autism is able to attack children physically every morning including pulling another child out of a wheelchair then something is going very very wrong with supervision and handling of this child's needs. It shouldn't get to that point. So he is being let down, which is in turn impacting on others. Perhaps he does need specialist provision in another school. But do you have any idea how much parents have to fight to get it? Or the woeful lack of provision there is.

The issue is that children with disabilities and special needs are being failed by our education system. And of course no need gives a dam until it's their child affected and then they want the 'problem child' removed... Or that is what people like past want...

thatsnot exactly. I'm a trainer for restraint and I've also had my DS with asd grabbed by a after school club leader. He had a complete meltdown and tried to run out of the doors into the car park. The lady couldn't get round him to do a correct hold/ guide so grabbed his arm to hold him and then sorted it. In that case though it is reasonable, proportionate and necessary and in the best interests of the child.
Worst case scenario is dislocated shoulder Vs dead under a car.
Needless to say I thanked the lady profusely for keeping DS safe and talking him down. We then discussed other options and found somewhere he could run to if he needed to run.

Just to say my DD doesn't have a diagnosis of ASD yet, my OP says suspected ASD, she is currently on a waiting list of 18 months for assessment.

Also - all her teachers since reception have said she is very well behaved in school and she very rarely disciplined for bad behaviour. The only thing they've all raised as an issue is her emotional state, she gets upset very easily and cries, but if handled properly she calms down quickly. I appreciate this can be a distraction if it happens in class, but I seriously doubt she takes up more of the teachers time than a child who is struggling with their reading for instance.

Also it wasn't her class teacher who grabbed her arm, it was another teacher who works in the ASD base in the school but doesn't directly teach my DD. But that fact kind of makes the whole thing worse in a way, because I really would expect her to be able to deal with upset children appropriately.

I have also checked the school website this weekend and they actually have a care and control policy on there,and after reading that it is abundantly clear that the teacher did not follow procedure at all. It says using force is only to be used as a last resort if all other alternatives have been exhausted, and it shouldn't be used to move a child who is refusing to remain in a particular place unless the child is a risk to themselves or other children.

So the school have also lied to me about 'following procedure'

Whether she has a formal diagnosis or not, if it is suspected then she should be treated "as if".
I would go back to the school and ask for a further discussion. You are being very reasonable in your reactions, you need the school to be the same.

Past Your posts are disgusting and disablist.
Just so that you know, my three with Autistic Spectrum Conditions are doing very well having been in mainstream school, thank you. One is at University, and wait for this, he's studying literature, because not all of those with ASCs study maths and computers.
Twin One has been accepted for uni, to do Lit, twin two, to do health and social care.

when what they're actually saying is I refuse to recognise the point your making here - because it is going against what I want.
I think what you meant was what you're actually saying because what you're actually saying is I don't want children with ASCs in mainstream schools. It may surprise you to know a number of things, but I shan't bother to explain them to you.
Oh, and we use Autistic Spectrum Condition now, it's not a disorder.

Morning folks. Just passing by with a reminder of our This Is My Child Campaign www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/this-is-my-child which is always worth a read.