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Original poster

Teacher grabbed my DDs arm and pulled her over

177 replies

craftyoldhen · 18/03/2015 20:38

My DD was queuing up for lunch today, she was upset and crying because her friend was being unkind. There has been a few friendship issues recently Hmm

The teacher asked DD what was wrong, and asked her to go to the quiet room with her to talk about it. DD said she didn't want to talk about it - this is because she doesn't trust the teachers any more, she says if she goes to them for help she just ends up in trouble. She tried to walk away, so the teacher said "don't walk away from me young lady", grabbed her arm and pulled her, accidentally knocking her to the floor.

Is this acceptable, especially given she wasn't been naughty, she was just upset? For background she is 7 and has suspected ASD.

OP posts:
zzzzz · 19/03/2015 13:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PossumPoo · 19/03/2015 13:08

Speak to the school. If your dd said she didn't want to talk about it the teacher should have left it there. Why is it acceptable for a teacher to do this to a child but if an adult grab another adults arm to prevent them walking away it would be outrageous.

You've got your dd side now go to the school and calmly ask for theirs.

Galvanized · 19/03/2015 13:09

all the more reason not to pull her by the arm when she's upset

Who told you this happened OP?

BuildYourOwnSnowman · 19/03/2015 13:19

My ds is 7yo with no asd and I am pretty sure he would react as your dd did. If he is upset he doesn't like to talk about it while he is upset and he would talk to someone he trusted - you say your dd doesn't trust the teachers.

In this instance I would have expected the teacher to back off and keep an eye out or mention it to her class teacher.

I would speak to the school and find out exactly what happened and discuss how these misunderstandings could be avoided in future.

Original poster
craftyoldhen · 19/03/2015 15:47

I've spoken to the school. They the teacher was "following procedure" and grabbed her arm because she was walking away. DD was walking into school as the line had started moving. The teacher wanted to take her on of the line into quiet area to calm her down before she went in.

I still don't think this is a brilliant way of handling any child who is upset, but particularly one with DD's difficulties. This is one of a number of incidents recently and I'm rapidly losing faith in the school :(

OP posts:
clam · 19/03/2015 18:57

Depends what you mean by "grabbing her arm." In the training we've just done, we were advised to "guide" the child with "open-mitt" hands above the elbow. If they resist, we let go.

Could this action have been translated into "grabbing?"

ChampagneBabyCakes · 19/03/2015 18:58

Is it correct that your child was upset because other children had been unkind and the teacher was trying to help?

Ok, nobody wants their child pulled to the floor, but the teacher seems to be trying to engage and communicate with your child. Would it be better if they ignored the problem and left her upset?

Original poster
craftyoldhen · 19/03/2015 19:16

Guiding her arm wouldn't have knocked her to the floor though.

Yes the teacher was trying to help, I appreciate that. But DD didn't want any help and said so. There has been a few incidents recently and as a result she no longer trusts the teachers with any problems, because she says they just make things worse for her.

OP posts:
Original poster
craftyoldhen · 19/03/2015 19:20

And it would be better if they tried to help her by er...helping her. You know by listening to her and treating her with a bit of respect. Instead of grabbing her so she falls to the floor Hmm

OP posts:
blueemerald · 19/03/2015 19:22

She shouldn't be forced to unburden herself to any adult who asks her. She wasn't rude or aggressive. She said she didn't want to talk about it, which is her right, and left.

I teach in an EBD secondary school. It is a very physical environment (both in a positive and negative way). If events unfolded as you have been told (and it is a big if) at my school the teacher involved would be in deep shit.

Original poster
craftyoldhen · 19/03/2015 19:29

I spoke to the school and they collaborated with DD's version of events. But they said she shouldn't have walked away and it was procedure to physically stop her and to take her quiet area to calm down.

I can see that a crying child is a disruption so they wanted her to stop.

But I still think they could have handled it better.

OP posts:
blueemerald · 19/03/2015 19:37

I would ask them what training they have had in restraint (they admit they tried to physically stop her). One person grabbing the arm of a child with one hand and pulling does not appear in either of the two types of restraint training I have had.

Descalation is the first step of any heightened emotional situation and they did anything but.

trashcanjunkie · 21/03/2015 20:50

zzzz it's an odd one for sure. The school has some kids with severe behavioural issues. One little girl who's mum was an ex heroin addict, who'd really turned her life around but there had been real problems with the dd's behaviours. The school, mum and various other agencies all worked together to find a strategy that worked when the little girl had a meltdown, which happened several times a day, and that was to remove her from the classroom (under a teachers arm, held round the waist, arms and legs going furiously) until she was calm and ready to return.

There have been other children with similar issues treated in the same way. The school has an open door policy, nothing is hidden, and equally, the children are cuddled and carried on occasion when required. It's a lovely school, with a village feel in the city. I have no problem with it, I think it's really important to have physical contact between staff and pupils.

They also have a great range of stuff in the playground to clamber on, so they can learn there own physical boundaries. The headmaster said we might get a broken arm or two, but it was important for them to be able to discover cause and effect.

zzzzz · 21/03/2015 21:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KeturahLee · 21/03/2015 21:15

Sometimes children do need to be physically moved or restrained, that isn't the same as "manhandling".

Wolfiefan · 21/03/2015 21:16

Speak to the school.
Stop saying she doesn't trust the teachers. That isn't helpful. Rebuild trust or move her.
Teachers shouldn't be grabbing an arm to restrain a child. There are approved procedures.

blueemerald · 21/03/2015 21:44

Sometimes students do need to be restrained. That's why approved methods have been designed so that no one gets hurt.
under a teachers arm, held round the waist, arms and legs going furiously

This is not a method I recognise from any training I have done. I have completed Team Teach and MAPA training.

The method described is not safe for the teacher, child or surrounding children.

PastSellByDate · 22/03/2015 07:20

crafty

It sounds like six of one; half dozen to the other to me - as is the case in most 'incidents'.

Look - your DD has ASD - and from a teacher's perspective she may be a lot of work. It's lunchtime - your DC's crying (and maybe the teacher was thinking 'Here we go again') - and also thinking (I WANT A BREAK/ LUNCH/ A CUP OF TEA and a bit of QUIET) - so she's short with your DC. 'I don't want to talk about it' - was probably 'Stop making excuses - let's get you to the quiet room where you can calm down' (subtext so I can go and have a break and a bit of lunch).

I suspect the teacher was pulling one way and your DD was resisting. She fell - which tends to be the case when this kind of thing happens - and I expect you can remember doing much the same when your child was a toddler and had a tendency to try and run off and you didn't want them to so held on. It's just physics.

I'm not trying to say your child is in the wrong but I am trying to say that in a context of a teacher (and you say this is her class teacher) who may be endlessly having to stop everything to deal with your DC and probably trying hard to accomodate her - there can be a little tension there - because that same teacher is trying to help the otherwise able struggling reader, the bright spark, the average kid get better, finish admin, lesson plan, etc... She's pulled in hundreds of directions actually and I personally think what's transpired is a tired, hungry teacher didn't want an argument just wanted to get upset child into quiet room and get on with her lunch.

I'm sure she is a caring person -but I suspect that the teacher may also see other children's needs as equally important and may feel your ASD DC is monopolising staff time (hers and TAs) at the expense of others. It's not unusual for ASD children to be hard work. Over time that can build a lot of resentment.

I get that many parents want such children to be in mainstream schools and frequently it works well & benefits their children and fully able children (I personally think DD2 being in a class with very mildly ASD boy was helpful for her - she's not frightened by disability and understands people can be very different).

But annectdotally I also know it doesn't always work - as in one friend's DD is hit most mornings going into school by an ASD boy. At that school many parents of injured children just want him out.

claraschu · 22/03/2015 07:48

Saying "don't walk away from me young lady" to a child who is upset and crying is unsympathetic and demeaning, as is grabbing her arm.

Things like this make upset children feel worse.

Notinaminutenow · 22/03/2015 08:03

Look - your DD has ASD - and from a teacher's perspective she may be a lot of work. It's lunchtime - your DC's crying (and maybe the teacher was thinking 'Here we go again') - and also thinking (I WANT A BREAK/ LUNCH/ A CUP OF TEA and a bit of QUIET) - so she's short with your DC

I get that many parents want such children to be in mainstream schools and frequently it works well & benefits their children and fully able children. *

Just how patronising can you get past?

"Such children"?!? ASD children are just children - like yours - some with additional needs. ASD is a spectrum, from incredibly high-functioning with no challenging behaviour, to a child in need of daily specialist care, and you have no idea where the OP's daughter is on that spectrum. Your platitudinous, cliche ridden and frankly bollocks assessment of "6 of one..." is ridiculous.

The OP's daughter was upset - 7 year olds get upset. She said she did not want to talk about it. She didn't scream, shout or hit out. She SAID she didn't want to speak; the girl was not in danger. An experienced teacher would have left it and checked back in later.

Children are allowed to say they don't want to talk - even to teachers!

claraschu · 22/03/2015 08:07

I agree with Notinaminute-

And I don't like the phrase "ASD child" very much. Usually I can't get to worked up about PC terminology, but in PastSellByDate's post the terminology seems symbolic of the attitude.

claraschu · 22/03/2015 08:08

sorry, it's "too worked up" not "to"

PastSellByDate · 22/03/2015 08:08

No doubt claraschu

I didn't say the teacher handled this well nor did I suggest this is best practice - but these type of events don't happen in a vacumn.

Only crafty will really know how often her DC is upset and even then she may not totally understand how much disruption this causes to a class.

From the teacher's perspective (and I'm just being devil's advocate here) she may be tired, hungry and a bit fed up that once again this DC is disrupting her plans (even if the were only for a quick 5 minute break and bit of lunch before getting on with some marking).

I also think without having heard how the teacher said this....

which could have been quite calmly - more of a request - but fair enough could have been at volume & argumentative - it's really difficult to know if the teacher was wrong. I also don't know how many times the teacher asked the DC to calm down before hand nor how agitated the DC was.

I think parents can't expect teachers to get it right 100% of the time. We can only expect them to try their best.

I'm also pretty clear from my little corner of English primaries - that a school with all staff trained to work with disabilities just doesn't exist. Certainly schools here delegate it to one or two TAs - who often work as a dedicated support to disabled pupils.

I think every parent has had points where the teacher has said the wrong thing. I personally abhor the fact that DD1's Year 3 teacher said - and I quote - 'It's ok DD1, girls aren't good at maths'. I find that attitude deeply offensive on so many levels. But I get the teacher was trying to make DD1 feel better about doing so badly on a little quiz.

Notinaminutenow · 22/03/2015 08:11

I'm not trying to say your child is in the wrong but I am trying to say that in a context of a teacher (and you say this is her class teacher) who may be endlessly having to stop everything to deal with your DC and probably trying hard to accomodate her - there can be a little tension there - because that same teacher is trying to help the otherwise able struggling reader, the bright spark, the average kid get better, finish admin, lesson plan, etc... She's pulled in hundreds of directions actually and I personally think what's transpired is a tired, hungry teacher didn't want an argument just wanted to get upset child into quiet room and get on with her lunch.

Oh past you do realise that teachers are professionals, right? And that most can be remain professional whilst being tired?

You have managed to extrapolate the above from what the OP said in her post? Staggering, insulting, condescending and just plain stupid!

iwishicouldsing · 22/03/2015 08:21

In all my years nobody has ever yanked me hard enough to pull me over. If someone did that to an adult at work it would be taken very seriously. I don't see why a child can't go to school and expect the same physical safety. I would be very annoyed if someone did that to my DD. It was probably an unfortunate accident but one that the school and the teacher should apologize for. It is important that they acknowledge that it should not have happened and that the teacher is sorry it did. Who pulls a child to the ground and doesn't immediately say sorry?
My worry would be that this teacher thinks this sort of force is okay. It is not.

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