ok lefties....does that mean I'm not then?

[Heathcliffscathy]

because alongside social justice I really really really care about civil liberties? because they are not 'liberties schmiberties' to me, but rather, 'there but for the grace go I'? Do you think that really leftwing stalwarts like Roy Hattersley would agree with you that civil liberties didn't count for shit compared with keeping unemployment down at all costs, however fake the stats are in real terms?

because although I believe in state intervention, in the state as a mechanism of a drive to redistribution of wealth and drive to granting opportunity to all i ALSO believe fervently in the individual, in empowering individuals to make their own destinies.

I am so fucking disheartened by the tribalism, pettiness and bloodymindedness that I've been reading on the leftie thread.

New Labour wasn't really socialist at all, rode roughshod over the rights of (the most vulnerable) individuals, decreased social mobility in this country. they needed a kick up the arse and got one. they need to reinvent and regroup and godknows they won't if David Milliband gets the leadership.

Maybe, even as a leftie you can see that to continue to attempt to spend our way out of trouble is fucked...we're in much worse trouble than we would otherwise be (and we'd be in deep shit anyway) because of this ostrich like way of governing.

coalition govt is so humanising of politicians: they can't strut about declaring how it needs to be, they just don't have the mandate...collaborative govt if that's what we have a chance of is so hopeful.

party politics is killing this country, I hope for it's swift demise. No one is all right or all wrong are they?

So stay in your red bunker, spitting on anything new, decrying and ranting about doom befalling before anything has fucking happened...but count me out for now.

Soph,

You know I agree with you about the whole economy thing, but that's the deal with lefties. The thinking is that the money must be there because ... well it just must be.

Also agree with you about the civil liberties point, and about the need for consensus in government, and the whole seesaw thing is just so tired.

But I sense you are getting cross, which is not good. The sun's over the yard arm and I feel it is entirely appropriate to offer you a glass of nicely chilled wine.

just disheartened i think...agree far to lovely a day for anger! too much hope in the air

Haven't caught up with the lefty thread since y'day afternoon, but you know I've been agreeing with a lot of what you've said Soph. I thought the deal on the thread was that there was a reasonably wide spectrum of opinion on there, and that we were all expressing what we thought? But maybe it's turned nasty since then, I dunno

i'm not floucing, just don't feel i belong on there: firstly i voted libdem therefore must be closet tory (wtf?) and next, i am passionate about civil liberties and they are just not important (wtf?).

feel like i'm pissing on people's parade (of doom) on there and they all thing i'm rightwing anyway so should leave them to it! will continue to lurk and no doubt comment when i can't sit on my tongue any longer!

Haven't read all of post (I will, Sophable, promise,) but surely "left" is being redefined all the time?

I think you're taking what 2 (2!) posters have said unduly to heart and as representative of "lefties" and the lefties on the lefty thread. Why?

Don't. It's an ongoing debate. And it should, surely, be interesting and fun since it is on-line, and, at the end of the day, none of us exert dramatic amounts of power to enforce our views on reality.

I am probably closer to you on civil liberties, though I think I disagree on the economic analysis stuff. Isn't the only successful example of solutions to economic crises from history that of Keynesianism and its ilk? But I'm no soothsayer.

If that makes me a "something-in-the-middle-leftie", so be it. I don't really think people can force definitions of political positions to stay still, not when politics is history and history ... moves.

I disagree quite strongly with your analysis of the Labour gov., I think it did v. well on poverty. But I have not been happy with civil liberty stuff (or the war!) and with the centralisation of power within the party. But then, I can see reasons why they did that (the centralisation of the power in the party). Was it worth it? Hmmm. I flip-flop on that one. Depends, I guess, on your evaluative schema.

Coalition good per se? Hmmm. I've worked in waay to many collectives to give a simple "hooray" to that for its own sake. Let's wait and see.

I hope you don't go away, I think it's invigorating. But if you want to have a discussion here, that's interesting too.

Now, I think I will pootle over to the leftie thread and see if there is something particular provoking your ire.

I'll just add that I do think it's a slippery slope to start sacrificing civil liberties for the "greater good". I found the list of repeals on the civil liberties front from the LibDems rather an indictment of Labour's record there ... .

"because alongside social justice I really really really care about civil liberties"

Yep. Me too. Also voted LD. And I think of myself as a 'lefty' FWIW.

Maybe we need a non-Labour lefty thread (you see this is the TROUBLE with the left, we are such bloody splitters)

I agree with some of what you say. I voted Labour but do not agree with i.d cards or with the wars we have been fighting.
Begrudgingly i find myself liking the fact that Con Dem are taking the best policies of both parties. Brilliant news about shelving the inheritance tax policy and raising threshold of when you pay income tax .I hope for this country s sake that this coalition proves a positive thing. I would have preferred a lib lab coalition though or green lab ideally.
I don't like the way Milliband is looking to see what the public wants ie the popular vote. I wish they would stick to their principles of social justice. Less new labour please more conviction led politicians like Tony Ben and Gordon Brown.

Completely and absolutely agree with you. Am glad you do post cos I find so many comments inspire disbelief and despair. I'm thrilled by the positive start of this coalition - suspect many (quieter?) people are.

And policy's right, with her implicit point that "Labour" does not own the definition of "Left". at the thought.

And how hideous would it be if all dissent and critique were silenced?

agree with you sophable about civil liberties. Like the idea of a coalition at the moment, but it is no solution in the longterm. Has dangers for civil liberties as in the possibility of a one party state. We need good oppositions to challenge and ask questions. Now we are seeing the LibDems agreeing with much of what they slagged off during the campaign and The Tories doing the same. Makes you wonder about conviction politics.

hmmm. Thread about 8 threads

By the way I was one of the ones who said I wasn't overly bothered about civil libs, but by that I didn't mean that I thought people who do care about civil libs are 'wrong' (although I might personally disagree with aspects of the argument), more that I have an internal list of political priorities and civil libs just isn't on it. I certainly don't think that people who do care about it are necessarily r-wing libertarians. I know plenty of lefties who care a great deal about civil libs and I have a lot of respect for them.

OMG Claig I think I just agreed with you (although from the opposite side of the fence no doubt).

yeah i know i know...should have posted exactly this on the leftie thread shouldn't i? feel like i need a 'left leaning AND liberal sick of party politics' thread.

the reality claig i think is that no party has anything like a monopoly on good (or utterly shite) ideas nor do they have one on good (or utterly shite) execution!!!

i'm listening to frigging joni mitchell...it's THAT BAD!

lol Jack

It's more a sub-quorate meeting to discuss background policy papers and make proposals to the executive, I think

and in terms of opposition...we might have one for the first time in years...i was really serious when i posted that the only decent opposition in this country has been frigging private eye (god bless it and all who sail in it, yes even potato head).

ooh, annimula, good point....

I am very left and have voted LibDem all my life. But my kneejerk reaction to the coalition was to run off and join the Labour party (having plenty of misgivings in the cold light of day).

Coalition is forcing us all to think completely out of the box.

pol

Sophable - I've been on the Lefties thread and the "tribalism, pettiness and bloodymindedness" has gone straight over my head (I suspect that says more about me than, well, anything). We're chatting, we're discussing, we're speculating, we're gossiping - I don't think we're judging individuals.

I'm fascinated by how the coalition will work - I have an inherant distrust of the Conservative Party, and I think probably only time and positive experiences would rid me of that, and I have a fair degree of trepidation about what the future holds, but more than anything I'm just plain interested. I think you're seeing Leftie hysteria where there really isn't any. Yes, we were depressed because we wanted the Labour party to win, and yes, we expressed that (at some length) but the tone of the Leftie threads now feels to me more one of curiosity than hatred.

Sophable - I wish you had posted this on the leftie thread as well.

I know that you were (rightly) annoyed with me the other evening, and I did actually come back to apologise to you on the subsequent leftie thread yesterday. I ranted on in the heat of the moment, partly fuelled by a glass of wine and the first cigarette in 2 years.

The ranting certainly was not directed at you or others, I just said what I said in the heat of the moment. I do have deep doubts about the veracity of the coalition, and to be honest I have never been a fan of the libdems, and I will not retract that, but I was wrong when I said libdem = rampant tory and I am sorry to have pissed you off.

I do not think that the coalition will work long term, and the fall out from any split I think will be more damaging to the libdems (and to any policies they cherish) than if they remained distinct from the tories in the first place and let them run a minority government. But that is just my opinion. I recognise that a lib/lab coalition would have been disastrous for both, and that labour is in the best place to retreat and regroup.

I certainly surprised myself by feeling so impassioned about this election, I have felt more impassioned about politics than I have for a long time. And although I may sound like a militant nutter to you, I am plaesed about that personally.

But don't leave the leftie thread, please.

Agree with all of animula's points.

Sophable I'd class myself as a left leaning liberal. I couldn't bring myself to vote for labour because I am totally apposed to the war, against id cards and feel that they (New Labour) sedated the poor and middle classes with tax credits and easy credit so we didn't notice the fat cats nick the cream.

But...

I am unhappy to prop up a right wing government that is bed with the very worst of Europe and has a history of neglect for the less well off members of society.