ok lefties....does that mean I'm not then?

[Heathcliffscathy]

because alongside social justice I really really really care about civil liberties? because they are not 'liberties schmiberties' to me, but rather, 'there but for the grace go I'? Do you think that really leftwing stalwarts like Roy Hattersley would agree with you that civil liberties didn't count for shit compared with keeping unemployment down at all costs, however fake the stats are in real terms?

because although I believe in state intervention, in the state as a mechanism of a drive to redistribution of wealth and drive to granting opportunity to all i ALSO believe fervently in the individual, in empowering individuals to make their own destinies.

I am so fucking disheartened by the tribalism, pettiness and bloodymindedness that I've been reading on the leftie thread.

New Labour wasn't really socialist at all, rode roughshod over the rights of (the most vulnerable) individuals, decreased social mobility in this country. they needed a kick up the arse and got one. they need to reinvent and regroup and godknows they won't if David Milliband gets the leadership.

Maybe, even as a leftie you can see that to continue to attempt to spend our way out of trouble is fucked...we're in much worse trouble than we would otherwise be (and we'd be in deep shit anyway) because of this ostrich like way of governing.

coalition govt is so humanising of politicians: they can't strut about declaring how it needs to be, they just don't have the mandate...collaborative govt if that's what we have a chance of is so hopeful.

party politics is killing this country, I hope for it's swift demise. No one is all right or all wrong are they?

So stay in your red bunker, spitting on anything new, decrying and ranting about doom befalling before anything has fucking happened...but count me out for now.

Actually, you know, I think we're going to see exactly this played out within the Labour party ... not just us, the electorate. It's a biggie.

Ninjacat, I find I often think "Hmmm, good point" when I read what Claig posts ... so that's two of us.

agree Ninja.

Michael Heseltine quoted on Mon night, "governement is a net that no-one in society should fall through and everyone should aspire to climb above". Nice, but how the Tories may interpret that worries me.

I do think people on unemployment benefit for more than 6 months should do some sort of community work. DH says I'm closet Tory, but I really don't see the problem.

"Coalition is forcing us all to think completely out of the box."

isn't that a wonderful thing...as is your passion...getorf, this thread wasn't aimed at you the other day and i'm pissed off with myself for not having totally told you no need to apologise...I'M THE ONE that told you to fuck off

i will come back to the leftie threads (never left, just said i'd lurk for a bit), but i just don't know if i'm a leftie? I'm certainly not a new labour fan. I don't think i'm anything right now except so glad that people are talking about politics in an interested and impassioned way...i LOVE that! I know that although there is a real need for opposing views and dissent (a massive crucial need) two party guffawing pointscoring both on the parliamentary and national scale are utterly pointless and destructive and i'm sick to death of it.

i think that bob marshall and ken clarke probably have more in common than bob marshall and tony blair for eg. and i want more bob marshalls and ken clarkes. i think it's ok for me to adore tony benn, and admire william hague's wit and mind.

I don't see civil liberties as a defining characteristic of leftiness or rightiness really, whereas views on social justice are usually pretty indicative.

i HEAR you ninja.

look, i've gathered all my favourite people (apart from loads of other on the lefties threads!)...

where is coolfonz btw, do love him (her?) especially when he (she?) gets really scathing!

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?? Are you directing that at me? Did you tell me to F-off? (can't remember that!) I'm rubbish at followeing threads I post on. What did I say to offend you?

heard about hague's apparent wit years ago but I seeem to have missed out on it.....

, I love Michael Portillo. he always has intersting, pertinent things to say. I'd love to go down the pub with him. Well, the wine bar in reality I guess

No Highlander - I said something stupid, she told me to fuck off, then she apologised, I said don't apologise it's fine, then I apologised for saying the thing which made her tell me to fuck off, then I came on this thread because I didnb't know she had seen the apology and apologised again!

Is that about it Soph

Politics. It messes with your head.

'more than anything I'm just plain interested.' me too hassled. The lefties thread has been my only consolation through this whole election and I've enjoyed the musings and discussion and yes the bitching about DC and NC etc and the whole emergence of this coalition has been fascinating actually whatever my feelings about the parties involved

I thought it was all (mostly) good-natured and am sorry if you have been made to feel unwelcome-so pleeeeeeease come back!
I am not very analytical about my political leanings, I tend to react with my heart not my head but you are right, no one party is all right or all wrong and I do hope DC and NC can achieve some good things together (though they'll have to drop the smug marrieds act sharpish as it's going to get a bit wearing).

Sophable I'm on the leftie thread and I think you have made some great posts and brought some very useful perspective. I'm sorry if you have been upset by some comments. I think sometimes people make comments in an off the cuff kind of way and forget that they might be commenting flippantly on something that is really close to another person's heart/ideals/values.

Like Hassled, the tribalism has gone over my head - of course we were all being ridiculously staunch in our opinions over the actual election (and a bit silly with our humour).

I thought GOML apologised for the tories comment and said it was something that just came out because she was feeling so glum about things.

I hope you aren't too upset.

Bob Marshall Andrews is a great lefty, we need more like him. There is good and bad on all sides. But civil liberties and freedom are of fundamental importance.

"By the way I was one of the ones who said I wasn't overly bothered about civil libs ... I have an internal list of political priorities and civil libs just isn't on it."

"I think sometimes people make comments in an off the cuff kind of way and forget that they might be commenting flippantly on something that is really close to another person's heart/ideals/values" yes beachcomber that is absolutely right, so there I was ranting on 'ahh all the libdems are just a bunch of tories in disguise' or what it was I said and I didn't actually think that there were people on the thread who felt just as passionately about Libdems as I do about labour.

people will worry about civil liberties when they are gone. I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

here's what I don't understand. People condemn new Labor because they weren't socialist enough, which is a fair point, but then defend the Lib Dems?

Where I live, people who voted Lib Dem are livid about being betrayed. The Labor candidate was told by none other than Billy Bragg that he was scaremongering as he mentioned if one voted Lib Dem, then get a Tory. It's what happened.

I will cheer on the day the coalition destroy the DNA database, eradicate all talk of id cards and repeal some of the more awful civil liberty infringements. And the scrapping of a 3rd runway 9though doubt it can be afforded atm with BA in such a mess etc). I have hated much of what Blairite Labour have done.

I will gain trust in the new gvt (or not) whan I see what they do with regard to taxes, education and health...and where the axe falls with relation to resources. But my tribal outrage is beginning to clear a window of open mindedness!

I have seen things I agree on and things I don't(I'm the only pesron who wanted contact point- but am I the only user?) . I am just much more in the lefty camp than the other. I don't agree with a lot of Tony Blair stuff and don't want David Miliband etc in charge (I think we all wanted HArriet didn't we)

I agree with Soph.

I love Animula's "not when politics is history and history ... moves."

Labourites accuse Lib Dems of being Tories in disguise and not lefties at all. Lib Dems accuse Labouries of being illiberal. And lots of people (on Mumsnet in particular) seems to think the Tories are wicked, based on things they did three decades ago. Silly tribal politics. Truth is if you drew a L - R axis and a liberal - authoritarian axis, MPs and supporters from the three parties would be randomly scattered. Same goes for the parties' policies.

Tribal politics is actually really lazy.

that's it getorf...in a nutshell

yes to love in via miscommunication too

policy, you need to up civillibs on your internal list i think...we fuck them up, we're all totally fucked...first they came for the jews etc i know it's a cliche but it's true.

also, personally, i just can't put killing, locking up and torturing innocent people LOWER on the list than keeping them in paid work (reads this back and starts laughing as it seems so insane to do that!). frankly i think that ensuring ROBUST defence and protection of the basic human rights (to life, to not be tortured, to not be abused by the state) of SCUMBAGS ahead of employment if you have to make me choose (and it ISN'T A CHOICE, THAT IS A TOTAL FALLACY).

also, i don't think your unadultarated joy at no more incarceration of children speaks of your lack of emphasis on civil libs!

I have a question about ID cards actually but I think I'll post it on the leftie thread so as not to hijack sophable's thread.

agreed sweedes!

i did a little graph thing (think it was on facebook) a long time ago and i'm a massively leftwing massive libertarian! i was right at the edge of both iirc...must go dredge it up

The interesting thing about civil liberties is that although Labour have gone one way with it and the Tories another, it's really a cross-party issue - it's not owned by any one party. The trouble is, the civil liberties that seem vitally important to some just aren't worth bothering about for others. I can't get worked up about ID cards, for example, which seem trivial compared to the enormity of detention without trial etc.

soph, as you've pointed out, there are civil libs things I really care about (internment without trial, torture - Miliband has been a right cunt on that one - libel reform), and others that I feel much more lukewarm about (ID cards, CCTV, that sort of thing).

should say though that the internment of asylum seekers think is not just a civil libs point IMO, it's basic fucking human decency!