ok lefties....does that mean I'm not then?

[Heathcliffscathy]

because alongside social justice I really really really care about civil liberties? because they are not 'liberties schmiberties' to me, but rather, 'there but for the grace go I'? Do you think that really leftwing stalwarts like Roy Hattersley would agree with you that civil liberties didn't count for shit compared with keeping unemployment down at all costs, however fake the stats are in real terms?

because although I believe in state intervention, in the state as a mechanism of a drive to redistribution of wealth and drive to granting opportunity to all i ALSO believe fervently in the individual, in empowering individuals to make their own destinies.

I am so fucking disheartened by the tribalism, pettiness and bloodymindedness that I've been reading on the leftie thread.

New Labour wasn't really socialist at all, rode roughshod over the rights of (the most vulnerable) individuals, decreased social mobility in this country. they needed a kick up the arse and got one. they need to reinvent and regroup and godknows they won't if David Milliband gets the leadership.

Maybe, even as a leftie you can see that to continue to attempt to spend our way out of trouble is fucked...we're in much worse trouble than we would otherwise be (and we'd be in deep shit anyway) because of this ostrich like way of governing.

coalition govt is so humanising of politicians: they can't strut about declaring how it needs to be, they just don't have the mandate...collaborative govt if that's what we have a chance of is so hopeful.

party politics is killing this country, I hope for it's swift demise. No one is all right or all wrong are they?

So stay in your red bunker, spitting on anything new, decrying and ranting about doom befalling before anything has fucking happened...but count me out for now.

are you watching proles? billy and michael portillo in furious agreement on how good a thing the coalition is!

doesn't that ring alarm bells sophable?
I'm not a Galloway fan, but Galloway doesn't like Bragg, because Bragg campaigned against 5 years ago him when Galloway was anti-war

no because they disagree on the outcome (billy thinks good for labour, portillo thinks good for cons!)

with a libdem! who knew?

Galloway may have been anti-war, but only because it suited him. Awful man.

agree with you ooojimaflip, there was a time when I was fooled by him, but now I think he is a fraud

anyone know about tuition fees?

Just caught up with this thread. Still interesting debate but has anyone tempered their view about DC nad NC after the announcements over the last few days?

If anyone is interested, the commentary on business news channels today is that suddenly businesses are worried about the taxes that may be imposed on them and in particular the raising of capital gains tax rates from 18% to 40%. They are also looking to severely curbing banks activities.

I agree with that.

The burden of cutting the deficit is clearly not going to be imposed on the poor. That should surely give people on the left some reassurance.

I agree with you Stewie, but unfortunately I can't see Medicine or Law ever being offered p/t - and these are the courses that should be doing more to attract in students outwith their normal social demographic.

been, interesting...make the point on the main lefties thread...this one is a sophable made anachronism now!

sophable - Lefties dont half talk. Their threads move so fast I cant keep track.

Leningrad, there's a problem about salary sacrifice for pensions - what do people already doing other salary sacrifice - such as Childcare Vouchers - do? (presumably a lot of MNers) Also only works for employees.

I'm in favour of taxing the rich but when I see this government making proposals I'm looking for what the scam is!

Sophable - I soooo agree with you.

I will still state that I am a socialist - but for many years that has not meant Labour. They sold their soul for power a long time ago - and like you, civil liberties is one of the things that will get me frothing at the mouth.

I am pleased to see a coalition government. I am hopeful that we are seeing a paradigm shift in politics - with people actually working together for the common good.

I am not saying that I agree with everything that Tories want to do - but am hopefil that the LibDems will have an amelirating effect.

The way that plotics had been run in this country proved that "Power corrupts". Labour had been in power for too long and had become corrupted by that. I hope that a coalition government will nto be as susecpetible to the corruption infection.

It's a shame that Labour are having such a tantrum and wailing "it's not fair". It would be nice one day to see politicians saying "yes, that's a good idea" instead of just automtatically arging that black is white just becasue the opposition said black is balck.

It's like the knee jerk reaction of the Labour Party in Scotland: when the Scottish Government was faced with cuts in it sblock grant and had to cut some expenditure and chose the Glasgow Airport link, Scottish Labour screamed blue murder - but didn't come up with construcitve suggestions as to what they would cut. It's easy to oppose - but not so easy to be constructive.

SGM I was lucky enough to be educated free. Will be forever in debt of society.
However now I work in university fundraising and I am afraid you are right. There are only so many non-EU students we can attract to be able to charge high fees. We are here to serve the British public after all.