ok lefties....does that mean I'm not then?

[Heathcliffscathy]

because alongside social justice I really really really care about civil liberties? because they are not 'liberties schmiberties' to me, but rather, 'there but for the grace go I'? Do you think that really leftwing stalwarts like Roy Hattersley would agree with you that civil liberties didn't count for shit compared with keeping unemployment down at all costs, however fake the stats are in real terms?

because although I believe in state intervention, in the state as a mechanism of a drive to redistribution of wealth and drive to granting opportunity to all i ALSO believe fervently in the individual, in empowering individuals to make their own destinies.

I am so fucking disheartened by the tribalism, pettiness and bloodymindedness that I've been reading on the leftie thread.

New Labour wasn't really socialist at all, rode roughshod over the rights of (the most vulnerable) individuals, decreased social mobility in this country. they needed a kick up the arse and got one. they need to reinvent and regroup and godknows they won't if David Milliband gets the leadership.

Maybe, even as a leftie you can see that to continue to attempt to spend our way out of trouble is fucked...we're in much worse trouble than we would otherwise be (and we'd be in deep shit anyway) because of this ostrich like way of governing.

coalition govt is so humanising of politicians: they can't strut about declaring how it needs to be, they just don't have the mandate...collaborative govt if that's what we have a chance of is so hopeful.

party politics is killing this country, I hope for it's swift demise. No one is all right or all wrong are they?

So stay in your red bunker, spitting on anything new, decrying and ranting about doom befalling before anything has fucking happened...but count me out for now.

Onebat - I kind of disagree with that. You can be Left and extremely critical of NL.

Claig is right - it stretches far wider and deeper than the individual acts of infringement that were instantiated by the Labour government, and goes to the core of New Labour, and also the fundamental difference between being, say left-Labour, or left-Liberal.

Sophable - you have to enter a debate recognising the legitimacy of your opponent's position, ie it's right to be in the debate - or it is not a debate. Heck, that's fundamental liberalism!! I think you can have the discussion you want, but you have to take the heat out of it.

But I am really unwilling to argue this any more because I honestly respect your views, and think they have a validity. And it isn't going to feel like that if you are being criticised from all sides.

Don't bow out, come and slag melanie phillips off with me...it's fun!

the outgoing government was a New labour government , not a Labour government.

other than that and the fox hunting thing all seems clear.

It so wasn't a New Labour thread. I am not a New Labour fan, for one.

There were lots of different views on there, including yours.

In fact, at some point I really want a discussion about New Labour.

right go on then...start a thread! i give you full and absolute permission and my blessing as if you fucking need it!

new labour thread upcoming.

Animula: Onebat - I kind of disagree with that. You can be Left and extremely critical of NL
Totally agree and am astonished that you think that's what I believe. Have you/I misunderstood something?

its quite simple.

a labour government would have banned fox hunting.

a new labour government pretended to ban fox hunting- but if you ask any fox its pretty much business as usual

I agree with some things that Scargill says. He is left and hates New Labour. It would be good to have a debate about New Labour, but without criticising those who like them.

It was the post of 23. 00. 53, onebat.

I'm sorry. I really loathe the passive aggressiveness of C and P. I felt you were coming a bit close to suggesting that a Left thread could not include a position critical of NL.

But, no, I do, actually, credit you with a great deal more political sophistication than assuming Left=NL.

sophable there is absolutely no way on this good earth that I am going to start a debate on the legacy of NL right now. And I won't be bumped into it, either.

And I really am bowing out now. Because I think there is just more going on here than I really quite get, and I'm out of my depth.

For god's sake. What nasty nonsense does this stuff come from? No-one was excluded or attacked. Sounds like protesting too much.

A new labour thread? What, celebrating among other things the leftist Brown and owning up to our various different hues of left?

I'm a sort of very sceptical Labour supporter - I really think that New Labour is far too right wing and loathe a lot of their policies over the last few years.

I don't think Lib Dem voters are Tories. I would never vote Lib Dem myself but I know people who have/do despite my best efforts to dissuade them. I don't think those of them who did in this election thought they were voting the Tories into power to implement Tory policies.

I have had experience of finding it hard to tell the difference between Tory policies and Lib Dem policies, and that was in a London borough where the Lib Dems were by far the largest party in a political administration.

'leftist brown'

on what policy evidence please?

animula
of course you can be left wing and critical of labour's record. Christ, it's practicalluy compulsory.

Contempt is a different matter, however, and might have been better expressed elsewhere.

hang on! sophable, you shoudl have stayed on that thread, how very dare you start a new one, all was lovely and diverse and great

vs

contempt for new labour belonged elsewhere.

frankly, there it is in a nutshell.

where do i go to express contempt at labour- and new labour's record?

you're fine here strangely...evidently you are not alright on a 'lefties' thread.

Strangelybrown, there's a few Tory threads waiting for your input

didn't Melanie Phillips used to be left-wing at one time?

but sophable - we all disagree with things. If we go beyond that, and feel contempt, then it's only reasonable to make a decision about where to express it.

The Lefties mutual pain thread poss not the right place, unless you up for getting it back.

Which is what happened.

i can't think of anywhere better to express my utter contempt for the brown government than a thread discussing the merits of the brown government.

trying to excise that sort of commentary suggests a rather cavalier attitude to civil liberties.

hang on...we've already discussed that.

lets talk about fox hunting

oooo billy bragg on politics show very happy about coalition!

is he leftie enough?