ok lefties....does that mean I'm not then?

[Heathcliffscathy]

because alongside social justice I really really really care about civil liberties? because they are not 'liberties schmiberties' to me, but rather, 'there but for the grace go I'? Do you think that really leftwing stalwarts like Roy Hattersley would agree with you that civil liberties didn't count for shit compared with keeping unemployment down at all costs, however fake the stats are in real terms?

because although I believe in state intervention, in the state as a mechanism of a drive to redistribution of wealth and drive to granting opportunity to all i ALSO believe fervently in the individual, in empowering individuals to make their own destinies.

I am so fucking disheartened by the tribalism, pettiness and bloodymindedness that I've been reading on the leftie thread.

New Labour wasn't really socialist at all, rode roughshod over the rights of (the most vulnerable) individuals, decreased social mobility in this country. they needed a kick up the arse and got one. they need to reinvent and regroup and godknows they won't if David Milliband gets the leadership.

Maybe, even as a leftie you can see that to continue to attempt to spend our way out of trouble is fucked...we're in much worse trouble than we would otherwise be (and we'd be in deep shit anyway) because of this ostrich like way of governing.

coalition govt is so humanising of politicians: they can't strut about declaring how it needs to be, they just don't have the mandate...collaborative govt if that's what we have a chance of is so hopeful.

party politics is killing this country, I hope for it's swift demise. No one is all right or all wrong are they?

So stay in your red bunker, spitting on anything new, decrying and ranting about doom befalling before anything has fucking happened...but count me out for now.

God, this is so bad for work. Am trying to edit fruit recipes while working out my political compass and it's all becoming a blur.

Soph yes I thought the same about LDs being to the left of labour, confirms what a few of us have been saying. I don't think that it means that labour party supporters have moved more right wing though (especially going on what is being said on the lefty threads), more that the party has left them behind.

PW I had read the same about DC hoping to case off the right wingers, and that is why he was so keen to do a coalition deal. Think there was something in the Guardian that suggested he was probably happier with the election result than if they had won outright.

Every time I did a policies not parties quiz I came out green with LibDems a close second, but not sure I would have voted for them even if they were standing here, as they wouldn't have had a chance. Thats were PR comes in though, wouldn't have been a wasted vote then!

I don't think it was nasty proles and am v sorry you see it that way.

Have you actually read this thread btw? not much in the way of rancour...

I truly think DC is putting a brave face on it rather than rejoicing in having a more liberal gloss on his policies. Not sure there's any such thing as a Tory with a social conscience, but in any case his policies on immigration seem to rule it out. Plus, on schools, his mantra was discipline, discipline, discipline - not exactly libertarian.

I guess my problem (if i've got one...course i have...loads!) aubergines is the massive mourning for a party that had moved so far right and an outright condemnation of any other...that's the point isn't it...that labour aren't actually left wing anymore...so a shake up of the whole thing long overdue and perhaps cause for hope?

yup on re-reading it's very frustrated with that thread...which is massively defensive of the indefensible (imo) track record of labour, and claims the monopoly on leftiness...but it wasn't personal and you seem to be making it so.

Please don't justify the Lib Dems as being left, or whatever as they have just entered into a coalition with the Tories. They are going to absolutely slash public spending. Spain and Portugal, according to the FT are cutting public sector workers salaries by 5%, and NC/DC are watching. Also public sector pensions are being reviewed as to 'affordability.' This is Day 1 of the coalition.

It's all well and good to plot one's political views, and I hope I'm wrong, but this coalition is going to absolutely screw the worker.

ilove...hasn't the meltdown of the global economy coupled with MASSIVE BORROWING even through times of plenty of the outgoing labour govt totally screwed the worker?

and fwiw, there really isn't much differenct between new labour and DC lead conservatism, so no i don't knash my teeth at this coalition at all, rather i hope that it brings the best of both and cuts out the worst.

"It was a rushed and poorly thought out policy stemming from Tony Blair's desperation to try and please everyone, rather than sticking to labour ideology"

Highlander, I think you are wrong about that. It was a deliberately thought out policy and they wanted to continue with it. If they had ditched it they may have stood a chance in the election. But they won't ditch it because it fits their ideology of state control. The Tories were against it and so were the LibDems.

and frankly proles and ilove comments like

'Please don't justify the Lib Dems as being left, or whatever as they have just entered into a coalition with the Tories."

are just exactly the kind that i got frustrated with...this coalition is born of what the electorate came out and voted, the libs couldn't form a coalition with labour as not only didn't the numbers work at all, but from the sounds of it they had your attitude to it.. my hope is that there is electoral reform so that more of our votes count.

and i'll add your last post to that proles.

because they have formed an alliance with the conservatives the libdems must we right wing...oooop, but labour are right wing...sorry but get a grip.

Economic Left/Right: -2.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.21

FWIW.

And I'm sorry, Soph, because I think you make some very valid points, (and I like reading your posts) but I feel a bit like Prolesworth on this one. I think the OP of this thread was, at best, ill-advised, and at worst quite nasty. A thread about a thread and all that. Would have been much better if you'd posted on the leftie threads, where all kinds of different views and thoughts have been debated over the last week or so.

Anyway, off to be shallow somewhere else now.

sophable, I do agree with Prolesworth. Your post did come across as if all lefties are anti civil liberties and that is not the case. The leftist regime i.e. the Labour party was against civil liberties, but not all Labour supporters were. I can understand that Labour supporters like Prolesworth would be a bit miffed at the tone of the OP.

but given that the libdems have reversed the worst anti civil liberties vagaries of labour under this new deal and that seems to count for nothing i don't think my attitude seems that far from the truth...

sorry to have gone against mn protocol in doing thread about a thread...bad form and i've already expressed regret that this wasn't posted in lefties thread...but it turned into a great discussion and now proles you've come over here to what, give me a kicking for daring to feel out of place and deeply frustrated by the thread i was on?

and claig, that would be the self same labour (the right wing one that eroded civil libs) that proles seems so utterly wedded to that anything else is JUST SHIT?

I disagree. The electorate did not vote for the Lib Dems to go into coalition with the Tories. A lot of people in my area, and I was on the door step every day, said they agreed with Labor, but couldn't bring themselves to vote for them because of the war, but didn't want a Tory government because they disagreed with their policies

And I'm irritated at your argument too, but my views are in a real minority these days....

sophable, I vote right wing but I don't agree with much of the privatisation that they have carried out. I don't agree with all their policies. I think they are the best of a bad bunch. I am sure that Prolesworth thinks the same about Labour, she doesn't supprt them on everything, but on balance she thinks that they are best.

ilove I agree most people did not vote for the LibDems to see them go in with the Tories, I certainly didn't. Whilst I have a great affinity with a lot of labour values there was no way I could vote for them because of the war and the infringements of civil liberties.

However, we voted how we voted as a nation and the best has to be made of the situation. I think there is a fair point to be made about the LDs playing Labour to try and get the best deal for the Tories, and their reasons for doing so worry me. I also think that there are lots of labour MPs who would never have accepted a deal between the two parties. Most of them can't even bring themselves to use the party's proper name ffs (Brown included until the election results came out). I have come to the conclusion that its historical sour grapes over the gang of four and the formation of the SDP back in the late 70s.

I for one would rather have the current situation than a Tory majority government [shudder] or a Labour one for that matter. If the LibDems had not formed the coalition then we would be looking at a minority Tory government which would be bound to fail and although we may have secretly or not so secretly been pleased at that, there is a massive economic crisis to sort out, so I can kind of see their point on stable government (although not so keen on the 55% VONC thingy).

I also wanted to say that I can see why Prolesworth is upset at Sophable's opening post, it is certainly true that the Lefties thread has become less accepting of anyone offering a different viewpoint that the grieving labour supporters the last few days.

Right definitely off to hide behind the sofa now