Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

You can have overt authoritarianism and lethal state control on the extreme left though which is very similar

@Ghouella

"I find it really strange that you view North Korea as a left wing country. In what sense are they left wing?"

Because they have had a communist government since 1948, unless of course you define communism as right wing which given we don't seem to have any agreed definitions you are perfectly entitled to.

"Anti-semitism is also, very famously, associated with the far right. Hitler was not left wing"

Indeed anti semitism as we all know was historically associated the Nazis, who also shared a lot in common with communism such as state control of industries. The only difference being was that the communists took state control of industry and then killed their owners whereas the Nazis allowed the owners to keep their companies provided they did exactly as they were told or be killed.

Personally I would see left wing as greater state control/ involvement/ nationalisation and right wing as less state control/ involvement/ unbridled capitalism.

What you're describing as "right wing" is more like neoliberalism.

Right wing authoritarianism does differ from left wing authoritarianism. They are not the same thing.

@cardibach

"She doesn’t want to discuss fascism. She wants to discuss how people can stop the rise of racism."

I haven't got a clue what OP wants to discuss. And without any definitions it's impossible to tell.

The thread title is the "rise of fascism" - should this read the "rise of racism" ?

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@TarantinoIsAMisogynist

"Right wing authoritarianism does differ from left wing authoritarianism. They are not the same thing."

In what way?

Nationalism or militarism? The communist countries were and are quite nationalist and militaristic.

For anyone who is confused about what fascism is, there is plenty of info out there. While there are some debates about the exact nuances of its meaning, it does have a broadly understood core meaning.

Anyone pretending otherwise is not engaging in this discussion in good faith.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Note - fascism definitely does not mean "street violence", "sectarian / religion-based violence", "bullying" or any of the other bizarre meanings it has been given on this thread.

There's a difference between Marxist ideology and the various incarnations of Communism such as the USSR, China and North Korea. They are all as authoritarian and anti democratic as any far right state.

However Marxism and fascism are worlds apart philosophically. They're completely opposed to each other. If you read Animal Farm for example, it's a perfect breakdown of how Marxism is twisted completely out of context: four legs good, two legs better.

@TarantinoIsAMisogynist

What you're describing as "right wing" is more like neoliberalism.

Agreed - would you disagree that neoliberalism is right wing?

I can't see how you can be in favour of greater state control and classed as right wing (Nazis) or be in favour of less state control (neoliberalism) and also be classed as right wing.

It's one or the other.

I'm always surprised that women's rights are now considered far right.

The Left has eaten itself. It's become nothing more than a men's rights movement.

The Left deserted women.

Sure but we don't live in theory we see the reality

The title is: Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

It’s very clear she wants to discuss worries about the rise of fascism. If you don’t think fascism is rising you have no concerns and this isn’t an interesting thread for you. Scroll by, as I do when I see one about wearing ankle boots with midi skirts. I don’t start demanding the precise height of the ankle boot, or the precise point on the OPs leg the skirt reaches. I’m not interested. I don’t think it’s important. I don’t respond.

The OP is very clear what she wants to discuss: So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?
Again, if you aren’t concerned you don’t need to do anything. The OP wants ideas. That’s what she wants to discuss. Individual posters precise definitions of the words ‘rise’ and ‘fascism’ aren’t really relevant.

When people ignore the absolute clarity of an OP to say - what do you mean by fascism? Who? Where is it rising? All I assume is that they don’t want people to have ways to resist fascism. And that tells me a lot about them.

This too, and the US election just showed another flip with more blue collar working people moving to Republican not Democrat

Pot kettle black.

This is rubbish.
The right just elected a rapist misogynist who is happy for women miscarrying or having an ectopic pregnancy to die.

Is there a rise is racism in general or just specific targetted racism (noe of which is ok)?

Of course, there's a lot of misunderstanding about what Marxism is. Marxism fundamentally is about rule by the people in a classless society, fascism fundamentally is about rule by elites. They are diametrically opposed.

A dictatorship can call itself what it wants, Russia calls itself a democracy.

The OP feels there is and wants advice on how to combat it. If you don’t, then you won’t be needing ideas on how to combat it, will you?

I am both left wing and gender critical. I don't consider gender critical beliefs to be far right. I do consider denying women access to life saving healthcare because of an ideological position on abortion to be far right, and a severe infringement of women's rights. I don't view rallying behind the rapist who likes to "grab women by the pussy" as a feminist position.

Whilst we navel gaze and fight amongst ourselves the jobs go to China, our borders are open to illegal immigration and we live on debt.

Well done America, they have had enough.

The bigotry of the left is off the scale.

There's the old GC rabbit hole for you. "We're feminists who vote against women's interests."

It's laughable isn't it?

Russia, North Korea, China - they're all governed by privileged autocrats who utilise the general population for their own ends, frequently failing to meet their most basic needs (eg famine in North Korea). They bear no resemblance to the "left" in Western Democracies and have far more in common with the far right. Hence why Trump and Putin are such great pals. It's pathetic that people use these regime's self appointed labels of being "democratic socialists" or "of the people", which are no more than meaningless propaganda to draw conclusions about their politics.

The modern left has massive problems - cancel culture, obsession with identity politics, disconnect from many people's immediate concerns - a slippery slope into autocracy isn't one of them. Whereas this is a legitimate concern about the far right and is literally happening in countries such as Hungary, and now possibly, the USA.

@Ghouella

"I don't consider gender critical beliefs to be far right. I do consider denying women access to life saving healthcare because of an ideological position on abortion to be far right,"

Well in my opinion gender critical beliefs are neither right or left, but more driven by age and sex and are more commonly associated with the right.

Equally I see denying women access to abortion as also neither right or left but more driven by strong religious views which again are more commonly associated with the right.

But you could have a person for example with strong Muslim views that disagrees with abortion on religious grounds but would otherwise consider themselves left wing.

Or a person with strong Christian views that sympathises with trans issues but would otherwise say also disagree on abortion and would consider themselves right wing.

@Ghouella

"They bear no resemblance to the "left" in Western Democracies and have far more in common with the far right. "

I completely agree that those regimes have far more in common with far right dictatorships but this would mean that communist regimes are effectively far right when communism is generally (and wrongly imo) seen as far left.

Personally I prefer my definition of left and right to relate to the degree of state control and ownership of the economy. With the left favouring greater state control / intervention and the right (or neo liberalism) favouring less state control / intervention.

@1dayatatime Yes I agree these things are nuanced.

By I was responding to the assertion by a PP that women's rights are now viewed as "far right". I inferred they are referring to gender critical views (whilst conveniently ignoring all other aspects of women's rights). But many on the political left hold gender critical views, myself included, JK Rowling included.

It's not necessary or helpful to fixate on a single issue such that you throw out the baby with the bathwater. I'm gender critical and would also like to live in a society where the sexual molestation and rape of women is not glorified, where basic healthcare including abortion is accessible to women, where gay relationships are valued equally to heterosexual ones, where democratic principles are upheld, where wealth and opportunity don't concentrate in a tiny minority and so forth. Broadly speaking these are the ideals of the left. Abandoning them all because you've decided "well some on the left say gender critical beliefs are far right, so I guess I'll go all in!" is bonkers to me, personally.

In my opinion, the rise of the far right is in part because there is no realistic alternative. There are hardly any parties who represent the working class. Most left wing parties are too similar to the right and aren't promising change.

Deregulation has screwed countries up; the world is being run by global corporations. Immigrants provide a very handy scapegoat on which to express vitriol while vast profits are made at the expense of the working class.