Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

x.com/planet_monitor1/status/1854715942917349765?t=Hp4OuarTVxxWBOWHf2gX0Q&s=08

In that case, you don't understand what fascism is.

Would you describe the troubles in Northern Ireland as an example of a 'fascist' conflict?
There was certainly street violence, and sectarian attacks. Was either side 'fascist'?

I couldn't understand what they were singing (sounded like a typical football chant), so the only thing I have to go on is the 'translation' (which may or may not be truthful) provided by the sharer of the video.

In these days of misinformation, AI and deep fakes, I am very wary of assuming that any random social media account is telling the truth. I'm also very wary of spreading such 'news' without checking and double checking.

The mainstream news reports that I've seen referred to 'anti-arab' chants, but I haven't seen any reporting that the chants said what that X account claims.

(The examples given are “Fuck you Palestine” and “Let the IDF fuck the Arabs”. While these are obviously inflammatory and wrong, they are not explicitly glorying in the deaths of children.)

Are there any more authoritative sources? Or can you understand what they are singing and are able to translate yourself?

If something doesn't have an authoritative source, I'd strongly advise not sharing it. That's how misinformation was spread in the run up to this summer's riots.

That's one thing we can all do to stop the spread of extremist ideologies.

I am at work but the video and similar videos is shared hundreds of times with the same or similar translation, including by a couple of news sources. They all include the quote about children. You could search it up if you like. I absolutely agree that we need to double check sources in this day and age. There is so much misinformation around, it's essential to check the veracity of things we see.

Reputable news sources are probably better as a link

Which 'news sources'?

X is a cesspit, not a reliable source of news. There are lots of accounts which purport to be 'news sources' but have no accountability and a track record of spreading disinformation. Just because an X account labels itself 'news' doesn't mean it isn't lying to you. Who are the people behind it? Who are they accountable to?

I have checked the sources which I know tend to be good at fact checking, and none of them are reporting this quote.

I'm not pro-Israel BTW - very much the opposite in terms of my views on the Gaza conflict. But I am in favour of truthful reporting. Without truthful sources of news, we have nothing.

This is a chat site for predominantly UK mums. It doesn't have to be Reuters.

No it doesn't.

But I do think we have a personal responsibility to fact check at least a little bit before sharing inflammatory content online.

Left or right - there are lots of actors online who further their agenda by spreading misinformation. We don't have to make it easier for them. On a thread about the spread of extremist ideology, I think that is very pertinent.

Tbf asking which news sources is a good idea. It could be anything promoting whatever and things just spread

The video, for those who don't want to watch, shows a large group of men wearing football colours singing a football chant.

The chant has a tune similar to the one that goes "ole, ole ole ole", but is unintelligible to me. They are singing in unison, which implies they all know the lyrics. Lots of them are pumping their fists in the air, and some of the men stick their middle finger up in the vague direction of the camera.

It could be a video of any lairy football crowd, at any big match - chanting, swearing and being macho. The only thing that makes this video different is the 'translation' provided by the account which shared the video.

Thanks I didn't watch. I recall looking up something and ending up on fact check for all things related to Gaza / Israel conflict and the sheer amount of mis-attributed clips was incredible. Each one with something like - this was in 2017 in another country etc

Just to add that the same translation is given by hundreds of other accounts. I'm not saying this makes it correct. We all know misinformation can be shared by millions of people!! But some of these accounts are Arabic and some are Jewish. The Jewish accounts were condemning it, I must add. I'm making an assumption that they understood what was being chanted. I could be wrong. The claims most definitely need further verification.

We all know how far misinformation can spread. I would give more weight to 1 or 2 authoritative sources than 100s or 1000s of unaccountable social media accounts.

Even looking at e.g. Al Jazeera - they are not reporting those quotes.

The Hungarian people vote for Orban as they see him as a defence against the excesses of the unelected European Commission and its woke ideas.

Notably:

• Having only had short periods of self rule, they want a nation and external borders THEY control.

• Their horrific treatment under the Ottomans means they don't want Islam (refugees) back in Hungary.

• As a very catholic country they don't want LGBT ideology being taught in schools.

• Election interference in Hungary. Soros/EU friendly NGO's bought out the entire opposition, including their far right party called Jobbik, to create a united front against Orban.

• and the main one, the EU's false promises and overly harsh punishment of Hungary for not complying with their whims.

Try speaking to some Huns, they are quite open about their unease of what they see as EU proto-communism.

By the way, it is his fourth term in office, not second.

The Hungarian people vote for Orban because he has dismantled and criminalised effective opposition and controls the media and judiciary. He has altered the electoral system via gerrymandering so that it is straightforward for him to achieve a supermajority (2/3rds representation) with only 40% of the vote.

It no longer matters what most Hungarians think about him or his policies. Hungary is no longer recognised internationally as a full democracy, because it isn't. Whilst Hungary is not a full dictatorship this is likely only because of restraints placed upon it by Hungary's relationship to the EU and NATO. Orban's second term was when the majority of these changes started - when he took it upon himself to maintain power indefinitely not by consistently and fairly achieving the popular vote on policy, but rather by weakening democratic processes. I think Trump would like to achieve something similar in the US, and possibly go even further. I really do hope I'm wrong.

Just because votes happen, doesn't mean a country has an effective democracy. Dismantling the checks and balances of the state so that it is difficult if not impossible to remove one individual from absolute power is autocracy. Orban may be doing things which are beneficial or popular but it's disturbing that he has the power to do things which aren't beneficial or popular, with little repercussion and little risk of losing power. Hungary has been in a "state of emergency" continuously for the past 8 years I believe?

Once those in charge no longer require popular support, or otherwise (or in tandem) through suppression of information and effective opposition are no longer beholden to actually improving the lives of their electorate - things get ugly and in a fashion which potentially is irreversible.

You can't have left wing fascist. Fascism is by definition far right. Do you have any evidence the attackers were left wing?

@TarantinoIsAMisogynist

"In that case, you don't understand what fascism is."

But given that no one on this thread has defined fascism including OP despite being directly asked then effectively anyone on this thread can make up their own definition.

I simply stated that the I would definitely define street violence and attacking people for having a different religion as fascist behaviour.

@username7891

"You can't have left wing fascist. Fascism is by definition far right. Do you have any evidence the attackers were left wing?"

Of course you can have left wing fascism and in my opinion there is more fascism currently coming from the left wing than the right. State control of the economy, militaristic nationalism and suppression of dissent all of which are present in say Communist North Korea are most definitely fascism.

Plus given that defining fascism is "like trying to nail jelly to a wall" and even the OP has refused to define it despite being directly asked then technically everyone on this thread has their own personal definition.

As for evidence that the attackers were driven by anti semitism and pro Palestinian sympathies all of which are associated with the far left then it is a logical assumption to state that they were left wing.

There was an interesting article in the FT yesterday, pointing out that in the last 2 years incumbent governments(right and left) had been ousted by substantial majorities.
Because the electorate blame them for things which are, effectively, out of their control.

I find it really strange that you view North Korea as a left wing country. In what sense are they left wing?

If it helps I'm using this definition of left wing:

"the section of a political party or system that advocates greater social and economic equality, and typically favours socially liberal ideas; the socialist or progressive group or section"

Do they have economic and social equality in North Korea?

Are they socially liberal in North Korea?

Is North Korea progressive? Socialist?

I don't think North Korea has a lot in common with the left wing in any democracy.

Anti-semitism is also, very famously, associated with the far right. Hitler was not left wing.

She doesn’t want to discuss fascism. She wants to discuss how people can stop the rise of racism.

And after the election before, everyone could see ‘a mile off’ that they wouldn’t stand a chance for at least 10 years. There’s no predicting politics.

You can't have left wing fascism. Fascists hate the left wing, they beat up trade unionists and socialists.

Fascists believe in a hierarchy of elites, the left believe in rule by the people. It's the complete opposite of Marxism in that the people are subordinate to the interests of the nation.

Nothing you say is logical. You're talking about left wing fascism for a start. You obviously believe that to criticise Israel is anti Semitic and only the 'far left' oppose them - lots of countries and people have spoken out against Israel's behaviour, they're not all far left.